Re: Batman Earth One Vol.1, Vol. 2

道 Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:38 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:I think there's a tremendous difference between being used (as we might've been for all I know) and being a willing co-conspirator (which I don't think anybody here was). All we wanted was a quality Superman film. The internal workings of any movie studio are not and cannot be our concern. If Robinov was able to kick Horn while he was down, that's beyond our control.

Anyone working with a WB insider to push the reboot forward was helping Robinov (or one of the other two). That's what it boils down to, in the end.

Let me ask you this. Just for the sake of argument, let's just say there was no negative reaction to Singerman. That it was received to universal acclaim. A tall order, I know. Stretches the bounds of credulity, I know. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that's what had happened.

How much of a blight would the other failures of 2006 be on Horn's record, without Singerman? Movies fail all the time. But when franchise relaunches fail, that's another matter entirely.

If Robinov was a mover and shaker in making that happen, fine. Let's face it, assuming he did take advantage of the anti-Singerman sentiment and the general Realist movement, he could've gotten whatever promotion he felt he was due without giving us the above reboot.

Hardly. There are two others gunning for Horn's chair. What works once will work again. If Robinov doesn't satisfy us, he will be subject to the same accusations and face the same firing squad as Horn.

The entire point of the Realist movement is that we deal in FACTS. And thus far, you've presented strong evidence that there was an overambitious WB exec gunning for Horn's job. I'm not convinced that you've satisfactorily tied the Realists to that agenda in an incriminating way.

You're right. I forgot to add that part. Thanks for pointing it out.

The most potentially lucrative film franchise WB owns is the DC stable of heroes. That's why they're replacing the Harry Potter franchise with DC, according to this Business Week article. They need an ongoing, moneymaking tentpole franchise. Of the DC Heroes, the two biggest moneymakers are Batman and Superman, as far as film franchises are concerned. Horn took a long, long, long-ass time that was well-documented in the entertainment media, and kicked out Singerman at last. The Internet outcry seemed to be tremendous. Since this happened on Horn's watch, he took the fall for botching not just an entire franchise, but others that could be spun off into moneymakers of their own. WB watched this happening with Marvel Studios. That was supposed to be WB's idea. WB owns DC. They were supposed to be able to bring their heroes to the screen in a shared universe easier than Marvel, who had contracted out to several studios for their films. Horn botched all of this.

This was Horn's biggest career screw-up. Everything else was dwarfed by comparison. Even so, given Horn's successes, it would take some persuasion to convince the others that Horn had screwed up Superman so badly that they couldn't continue. Enter the fan reaction on the Internet. The fan reaction that said Singerman totally broke the character because it injected him with a creepy, stalker-like mentality and heavy doses of homosexual undertones. The fan reaction was the major weapon in Horn's ousting. The Singerman debacle is the only conceivable thing that could overturn Horn's long-running track record. Anyone who "made some noise" about how awful it was shares not only in the victory of Snyder's upcoming movie, but in the responsibility for kicking Horn to the curb.

And that's the truth. There is no source for THAT aspect because the only source would be the actual minutes of WB's board meetings. Deny it to yourself all you want. It eats me up inside, personally.

To a man, none of us are willing to kow-tow and accept a sub-standard Superman film just to protect a business arrangement with WB personnel.

That wasn't even my point. My point was this:

Is a quality Superman film worth hurting real people over? Is it worth turning professional journalists' blogs into a free-for-all (and thereby showing the Superman fandom's asscrack to the world)? Is it worth costing people their livelihoods?

From what I can gather, it doesn't look to me like you're justified in unloading on AP the way you have. There is no "mod protection" here and anyway AP's a big boy and can take care of himself.

Justified or not, he did ask for it. He requested evidence. I gave it to him. I'm waiting on him to respond to both these points and the ones I made over in the Younis Page thread.

Last of all, given the above, it looks to me like the Realists are yet again one up on the Apologists. We're getting what we want (or seem to be anyway) while keeping our independence. The only way the Apologists could ever get by is with the likes of Steve Younis and others getting special deals and preferential treatment.

Well, that depends on the type of Apologist. A Brandon Routh groupie? Won't get by. Someone who just wanted a send-off to Chris Reeve, given his untimely death shortly beforehand? Or someone who'd set the bar so fucking low after the Burton/Abrams/McG/Ratner debacle that they were just glad to see the imagery they were familiar with, if not the spirit? They can jump ship quite easily.

If Zack Snyder's Superman ends up sucking, the Realists aren't "betraying" anybody but shouting as much from the rooftops.

That's self-respect no amount of money can ever buy.

If Snyder's Superman ends up sucking, the Realists will have no right to complain because as you've noted above, we'll have gotten everything we ever asked for. And it will have sucked.

...because we forgot to insist on a decent screenwriter.

non_amos Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:56 pm

Anyone working with a WB insider to push the reboot forward was helping Robinov (or one of the other two). That's what it boils down to, in the end.

Gee, I'm glad you brought that up! I think memory serves us all correctly in that it wasn't too long ago that us realists had our very own Hollyweird insider, 'Steve'. Steve Manning, the one & ONLY archangel! He 'claimed' to be continuing the work that his wife 'Emi' had started at the now defunct site COUNTINGDOWN. She became notorious for having 'inside info' that continually seemed to be true. While the Sucks blog was going on, she started her own blog, which ended up being like the Sucks blog in a lot of personal attacks & invasions from duh Homopage. But alas! Her husband 'Steve' conveniently stepped in. He would be the 'go-to-guy' from then on. He even went to form his own website, SAVESUPERMAN, which he abandoned about as quickly claiming that his 'work was done, we'd won' crapola. However, he then started the 'Save Superman' blog, which is still there but obviously inactive. Which he also abandoned! A real stand-up guy there, that 'Steve'. But you wouldn't know anything about that, now would ya?! Wink

And that's the truth. There is no source for THAT aspect because the only source would be the actual minutes of WB's board meetings. Deny it to yourself all you want. It eats me up inside, personally.

My stars! That sounds like guilt there! Do you feel guilty for costing someone their job? Ya know, I believe 'Steve' would possibly feel guilty. HMMM!

Is a quality Superman film worth hurting real people over? Is it worth turning professional journalists' blogs into a free-for-all (and thereby showing the Superman fandom's asscrack to the world)? Is it worth costing people their livelihoods?

See previous point. Ya know, during the 'writer's strike' a few years ago, duh apologists at duh Homopage constantly sided with the writers, even if it meant not getting their precious superhero films on time. Where each of us stands on that issue varies I'm sure. I'm aware that there are struggling writers but..... I don't have much sympathy for celebrities who make more money just for breathing than I do in a year or even a lifetime for that matter.

But why would 'Steve' feel so guilty now?! I mean, the dude pushed for this very thing & even claimed to know what was on Christopher Nolan's mind! In so many words anyway. However, recently 'Steve' was made to look like a buffoon! His rather lengthy 'info' for the current version of the Superman reboot couldn't have been any more wrong! I'll skip that for now but let's just say, right, he wasn't! And then the site that he went back to, 'Countingdown', suddenly went offline for no apparent reason. Or was it because the lid was about to be blown on his many errors?

So just who are we supposed to realize that you are anyway dude?! You wouldn't happen to know 'Steve' now would ya?! Wink

thecolorsblend Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:51 pm

道 wrote:
thecolorsblend wrote:That's self-respect no amount of money can ever buy.
If Snyder's Superman ends up sucking, the Realists will have no right to complain because as you've noted above, we'll have gotten everything we ever asked for. And it will have sucked.

...because we forgot to insist on a decent screenwriter.

Here's the deal, chief. Nobody called SSS or AP or me or Finian or non_amos (if that even is his real name) or anyone to seek our input. We said we wanted a reboot and, in apparent capitulation, WB is rebooting.

THAT is where our involvement ends. What happens after that is legitimate material for us to praise or criticize as warranted.

Putting aside delusional fantasies some had of a Smallville-oriented Superman film, WB had three basic options-

01- Make a Singerman sequel.
02- Reboot the films entirely.
03- Do nothing.

#3 doesn't suit the fanbase's agenda. #1 was off the table no matter what. Even *IF* fans had universally loved Singerman (which we obviously didn't), I'm still not convinced WB would've gone ahead with Singerman 2.

All that leaves on the table is the second item. WB wants to make money, we want a REAL Superman movie and so the second choice seemed the best way forward for all parties.

But, unless Puncher is sitting on a LOT more than I've been led to believe, nobody has made any contact with "the fans" for "advice". (A) We probably couldn't all agree on how to make friggin Kool-Aid and (B) it'd be a cold day in hell before a Hollywood studio turned to the fanbase for ideas (for legal purposes, if nothing else).

What more could we have POSSIBLY done in this?

If Snyder's Superman sucks, as I said, we're at liberty to criticize freely.

道 Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:29 pm

non_amos wrote:My stars! That sounds like guilt there! Do you feel guilty for costing someone their job? Ya know, I believe 'Steve' would possibly feel guilty. HMMM!

Try again. I'm not Steve. Not Steve Younis. Not Steve Manning.

As I said to AP via email, I'm just an innocent bystander who got burned by both sides and is very, VERY pissed off at all this continued drama. The possibility of said drama having been co-opted to further someone's ambitions doesn't sit well with me, either.

道 Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:44 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:What more could we have POSSIBLY done in this?

It's the magnitude of the drama that's the issue. Do you seriously believe Horn would've gotten fired if the unsubstantiated vitriol (like the nigh-ubiquitous "Singer is a FAG and Superman Returns was GAY" and "Singerman, giving head & packing fudge") in the comments thread on the SSS blog and SaveSuperman hadn't been so drastic? That's WHAT THEY USED to prove Horn was out of touch with young people.

thecolorsblend Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:07 pm

道 wrote:
thecolorsblend wrote:What more could we have POSSIBLY done in this?
It's the magnitude of the drama that's the issue. Do you seriously believe Horn would've gotten fired if the unsubstantiated vitriol (like the nigh-ubiquitous "Singer is a FAG and Superman Returns was GAY" and "Singerman, giving head & packing fudge") in the comments thread on the SSS blog and SaveSuperman hadn't been so drastic? That's WHAT THEY USED to prove Horn was out of touch with young people.

And again, there was no quid pro quo. We shared our disenchantment with one another. How WB execs use that is not our concern. You said yourself WE WERE USED. That implies that we had no level of control over what happened. Are we to censor our thoughts just because it might cost someone his job?

non_amos Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:16 pm

道 wrote:
non_amos wrote:My stars! That sounds like guilt there! Do you feel guilty for costing someone their job? Ya know, I believe 'Steve' would possibly feel guilty. HMMM!
Try again. I'm not Steve. Not Steve Younis. Not Steve Manning.

As I said to AP via email, I'm just an innocent bystander who got burned by both sides and is very, VERY pissed off at all this continued drama. The possibility of said drama having been co-opted to further someone's ambitions doesn't sit well with me, either.

Ya know what dude? You wouldn't admit who you are even if I do guess it right. You're about 'smokescreens & mirrors' AKA deception. But let me guess? You are this guy, ain't ya:

https://supermanfilmwatchdog.forumcanadien.org/post?p=3789&mode=quote

Anonymous said...

Apologistgirlpuncher cuffing his apologist.

LMAO,

Kryptonian

It seems that much of your posts consisted of this, except for when you added just a little more. It somehow made you a big man, LMAO.

So go ahead & deny that you're Kryptonian too. If anything, you are predictable.
Sleep

non_amos Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:18 pm

non_amos wrote:
道 wrote:
non_amos wrote:My stars! That sounds like guilt there! Do you feel guilty for costing someone their job? Ya know, I believe 'Steve' would possibly feel guilty. HMMM!
Try again. I'm not Steve. Not Steve Younis. Not Steve Manning.

As I said to AP via email, I'm just an innocent bystander who got burned by both sides and is very, VERY pissed off at all this continued drama. The possibility of said drama having been co-opted to further someone's ambitions doesn't sit well with me, either.

Ya know what dude? You wouldn't admit who you are even if I do guess it right. You're about 'smokescreens & mirrors' AKA deception. But let me guess? You are this guy, ain't ya:

http://singerssupermansucks.blogspot.com/2009/02/freedom-of-speech-alive-well.html

Anonymous said...

Apologistgirlpuncher cuffing his apologist.

LMAO,

Kryptonian

It seems that much of your posts consisted of this, except for when you added just a little more. It somehow made you a big man, LMAO.

So go ahead & deny that you're Kryptonian too. If anything, you are predictable.

道 Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:21 pm

non_amos wrote:Ya know what dude? You wouldn't admit who you are even if I do guess it right. You're about 'smokescreens & mirrors' AKA deception. But let me guess? You are this guy, ain't ya:

http://singerssupermansucks.blogspot.com/2009/02/freedom-of-speech-alive-well.html

No, when that happened, I was writing for BTN. I wrote a piece saying things had gone too far, that we needed to stop escalating this shit and try to reconcile. I submitted it, and they stopped returning my emails. I had only written one article for them prior to that, so it wasn't some kind of long-standing relationship; and I wasn't included in the mailing list when they did the EyesSkyward revamp.

Matter of fact, I still have that article on a flash drive if you guys want me to post the contents.

Anonymous said...

Apologistgirlpuncher cuffing his apologist.

LMAO,

Kryptonian

Think about that for a minute. Do I seem like the sort of person to just take a small, cheap shot and move on? What about my posting style suggests brevity to you?

It seems that much of your posts consisted of this, except for when you added just a little more. It somehow made you a big man, LMAO.

So go ahead & deny that you're Kryptonian too. If anything, you are predictable.

What makes you think that I would lie to you if you guessed right? I'm not Kryptonian or anyone else you've guessed so far. That's the truth, whether you want to believe it or not.

Turning the tables... would you admit who you were on BTN if I guessed it?

道 Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:13 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:You said yourself WE WERE USED. That implies that we had no level of control over what happened. Are we to censor our thoughts just because it might cost someone his job?

You tell me. Do you do that in real life?

However much power we had to push the reboot through, we are exactly that responsible for Horn getting fired. You cannot take credit for the reboot without accepting an equal amount of blame for any and all bad events that led to its happening. That's a fact, and no amount of rationalization will change it.

non_amos Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:00 pm

道 wrote:
non_amos wrote:Ya know what dude? You wouldn't admit who you are even if I do guess it right. You're about 'smokescreens & mirrors' AKA deception. But let me guess? You are this guy, ain't ya:

http://singerssupermansucks.blogspot.com/2009/02/freedom-of-speech-alive-well.html
No, when that happened, I was writing for BTN. I wrote a piece saying things had gone too far, that we needed to stop escalating this shit and try to reconcile. I submitted it, and they stopped returning my emails. I had only written one article for them prior to that, so it wasn't some kind of long-standing relationship; and I wasn't included in the mailing list when they did the EyesSkyward revamp.

Matter of fact, I still have that article on a flash drive if you guys want me to post the contents.

Anonymous said...

Apologistgirlpuncher cuffing his apologist.

LMAO,

Kryptonian
Think about that for a minute. Do I seem like the sort of person to just take a small, cheap shot and move on? What about my posting style suggests brevity to you?

It seems that much of your posts consisted of this, except for when you added just a little more. It somehow made you a big man, LMAO.

So go ahead & deny that you're Kryptonian too. If anything, you are predictable.

What makes you think that I would lie to you if you guessed right? I'm not Kryptonian or anyone else you've guessed so far. That's the truth, whether you want to believe it or not.

Turning the tables... would you admit who you were on BTN if I guessed it?

Knock yourself out with that last suggestion, good luck! I was never on 'Blue Nuts', at least not as a member anyway. I really didn't even wear out lurking there either. It seemed only occasionally would I even check out anything there & I never signed up as a member. So you're someone who 'wrote' an article for them huh? But like I said, knock yourself out with guessing my ID at 'Blue Nuts'!

thecolorsblend Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:33 pm

道 wrote:
thecolorsblend wrote:You said yourself WE WERE USED. That implies that we had no level of control over what happened. Are we to censor our thoughts just because it might cost someone his job?
You tell me. Do you do that in real life?

However much power we had to push the reboot through, we are exactly that responsible for Horn getting fired. You cannot take credit for the reboot without accepting an equal amount of blame for any and all bad events that led to its happening. That's a fact, and no amount of rationalization will change it.

Okay, obviously you're a lot more worried about this than I am. But just so's we're clear, I'm not responsible for Horn losing his job. Neither is Puncher or SSS. Neither is non_amos (if that even is his real name) or Father Finian.

It's all on Robinov. If we're going to blame someone, let's blame the guilty party for once.

non_amos Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:37 am

thecolorsblend wrote:
道 wrote:
thecolorsblend wrote:You said yourself WE WERE USED. That implies that we had no level of control over what happened. Are we to censor our thoughts just because it might cost someone his job?
You tell me. Do you do that in real life?

However much power we had to push the reboot through, we are exactly that responsible for Horn getting fired. You cannot take credit for the reboot without accepting an equal amount of blame for any and all bad events that led to its happening. That's a fact, and no amount of rationalization will change it.
Okay, obviously you're a lot more worried about this than I am. But just so's we're clear, I'm not responsible for Horn losing his job. Neither is Puncher or SSS. Neither is non_amos (if that even is his real name) or Father Finian.

It's all on Robinov. If we're going to blame someone, let's blame the guilty party for once.

Yeah, Robinov was obviously 'coveting' Horn's job & just happened to be lucky enough to have a 'dead Singerman' land in WB's lap. Therefore I guess he capitalized on the situation. It wasn't our fault. How could it be? Seems like some kinda fallacy going on there or something.

And yes, non_amos is as real of a name as 'colors'. Gee, the Internets are great huh dude? Even Mr. Homopage posting here knows that! But since you've insinuated for like, the gazillionth time, let me tell you my name. It's *********.See, I'm exposed! Laughing

Apologist Puncher Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:15 am

It doesn't come out for another year almost...

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/42/news/?a=44506

Batman Earth One Vol.1, Vol. 2 - Page 2 21141g6

thecolorsblend Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:17 am

What? The? Fuck?

I realize that both Johns and Frank set the standard for missed deadlines but this is unbelievable!

webhead2006 Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:33 am

Its a nice cover, but ya wow what a delay it has had.

Apologist Puncher Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:44 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:What? The? Fuck?

I realize that both Johns and Frank set the standard for missed deadlines but this is unbelievable!

Johns has been too busy thinking of new ways to destroy Superman forever.

thecolorsblend Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:25 pm

Apologist Puncher wrote:
thecolorsblend wrote:What? The? Fuck?

I realize that both Johns and Frank set the standard for missed deadlines but this is unbelievable!

Johns has been too busy thinking of new ways to destroy Superman forever.

Stupid me, what was I thinking?

Was thinking about picking this thing up though. Frank's style has evolved into something that may be more fitting for Batman anyway. Certainly more than it fits Superman anyway.

Apologist Puncher Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:51 pm

I'll check it out, just to see if it's any good.

thecolorsblend Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:29 am

One neat aspect to how this Earth One stuff could relate to Batman is a streamlining of the mythos. In the standard continuity, Batman is a "driven loner"... except, y'know, for Nightwing, Robin (Damien), Red Robin (Tim; boy, talk about someone who got hosed out of his dream job), the various Batgirls over the years, Batwoman, the Red Hood (Jason; boy, talk about someone who got hosed out of a really awesome and tragic legacy), Alfred, sometimes Catwoman, Jim Gordon, Oracle (Barbara; boy, talk about someone who got hosed out of a really awesome character arc), Anarky and, oh yeah, BATMAN FUCKING INC!!!

All that shit? Out the window, potentially, with room to let Batman be a bit truer to his original depiction from that first year or so of Bob Kane/Bill Finger Detective Comics (a phenomenal run for those who haven't read it, and I'm not even much of a Golden Age guy most of the time).

webhead2006 Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:33 pm

Earth one preview:
http://comics.cosmicbooknews.com/content/first-look-batman-earth-one-geoff-johns-and-gary-frank
Batman Earth One Vol.1, Vol. 2 - Page 2 BME1_HC_22

Batman Earth One Vol.1, Vol. 2 - Page 2 BME1_HC_22

Batman Earth One Vol.1, Vol. 2 - Page 2 BME1_HC_23

Batman Earth One Vol.1, Vol. 2 - Page 2 BME1_HC_24

thecolorsblend Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:18 pm

Should I be as surprised as I am that Batman (at least in that single panel) doesn't look like Michael Keaton or Christian Bale?

Apologist Puncher Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:46 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:Should I be as surprised as I am that Batman (at least in that single panel) doesn't look like Michael Keaton or Christian Bale?

Kind of surprising, isn't it?

And looking back at page 1 of this thread, the date is December, 2010. Which was almost a year and a half since the first announcement. How in the Holy Hell does it take almost THREE YEARS to complete ONE graphic novel??

thecolorsblend Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:11 pm

Apologist Puncher wrote:
thecolorsblend wrote:Should I be as surprised as I am that Batman (at least in that single panel) doesn't look like Michael Keaton or Christian Bale?

Kind of surprising, isn't it?

And looking back at page 1 of this thread, the date is December, 2010. Which was almost a year and a half since the first announcement. How in the Holy Hell does it take almost THREE YEARS to complete ONE graphic novel??

I got two words for you.

01- Gary
02- Frank

Apologist Puncher Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:13 am

thecolorsblend wrote:I got two words for you.

01- Gary
02- Frank

I guess when you can't pull out random 'Superman The Move' publicity stills in order to draw the main character, it takes an excruciatingly long time to draw a GN....

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Batman Earth One Vol.1, Vol. 2