Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

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Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  Apologist Puncher on Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:50 pm

So I just found a Superman picture that I had, that I really like.

Check it out:



What I like most about it is how close the likeness is to Christopher Reeve.



They must have studied pictures of him in order to get it just right. Right?

Nope:

Spoiler:

Just goes to show just how right they got it back in '78, doesn't it?

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  thecolorsblend on Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:19 pm

Apologist Puncher wrote:Just goes to show just how right they got it back in '78, doesn't it?
Surely you understand that the corollary there is how wrong they got it back in '06, right?

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  Apologist Puncher on Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:34 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:Surely you understand that the corollary there is how wrong they got it back in '06, right?

Indeed I do.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  thecolorsblend on Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:57 pm

Just making sure. There's a kinda Gary Cooper lite flavor in that Superman painting. You know? That "strong, silent type" thing. Wholesome as the day is long but, nevertheless, strong and manly.

To put it another way, everything in that painting is pretty much the diametric opposite of the Supermetrosexual we saw back in 2006.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  Apologist Puncher on Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:05 pm

What I find interesting is, in Reeve we had a DEFINITE Curt Swan/Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez vibe, and with Cavill, there is a DEFINITE Ed McGuinness vibe going on in everything we have seen so far. Even George Reeves had a Wayne Boring vibe to him too.

What "vibe" did BJ Routh give off, because it sure WASN'T a "comic character come to life" one?

Spoiler:

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  thecolorsblend on Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:33 am

Yeah, the Reeve/Swan thing has sort of been a point of contention for me too. Apologists, ignorant as they tend to be about comics, seem to think that Swan modeled his Superman after Reeve. Um, no. Whether it was pitch perfect casting, a quirk of fate or whatever else, Reeve looked like Swan's Superman. Not vice versa.

And yeah, Cavill has the McGuiness vibe going. No, he's not quite as massive as the McGuiness version but who is? And of those, who'd bring Cavill's talent to the role?

One reason I supported Armie Hammer was that he strongly reminded me of Tim Sale's Superman. The height, the build, the facial structure, it was pretty close.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  non_amos on Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:07 am

Just for laughs I thought I'd include this. I don't know if you guys remember this or not:





I was almost certain that KELLOGGS had out a Singerman cereal but I couldn't find a pic. Anywho, I think you can say it's safe to say that even a cereal box from 1947 beats this crap-fest. But it wouldn't take much either huh?

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  thecolorsblend on Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:42 am

Memory can be a pretty freakin subjective thing at times. I can't speak for the rest of you but sometimes it's easy for me to forget just how truly awful the Singerman bikini was. I think it's because I rarely ever see it anymore. See, my opinion is that a normal, healthy human psyche has a tendency to forget unpleasant things. Given a sufficiently long period of time, you will eventually block out the worst of something. So in my case, what I'm really left with is "man, that Singerman outfit fucking SUCKED" but it may be kind of hard to remember why I so hate it.



But then, now and again, I come across a pic that reminds me of just how bad it always was. This image here could be almost 'A' to 'Z' of everything that was wrong with the Singerman tu-tu. All you're really lacking is detail of the cape and the Ace Frehley high heels when you think about it.

First off, find me another pic that better exemplifies Routh's hour glass figure. When Realists complained that Routh had a fairly cookie cutter swimmer's build, we were mocked and dismissed but this pic really tells the tale there. Now you compare that to Henry Cavill or, possibly a better example, Tom Welling, both of whom have a more comic book-friendly V-cut to their physiques and you can see Routh's shortcomings on that basis alone.

Next, I think it does a pretty good job of showing you that Routh is almost all torso. To this day, I think that's why Mingenhach had to set the collar and chest emblem as high as she did. She needed to give the body suit some sense of proportion and balance. Had those things been any set lower, you'd have immediately noticed how awkward and off-center the guy is. Raising up the collar so high is an attempt to kind of balance that out a little bit.

Next is the colors. People say that Singer desaturated the bikini's color levels in post production. And he may well have done just that for all I know but you're starting off on the wrong foot to begin here as this pic handily demonstrates. The "red" aspects of the tu-tu are more of a maroon/wine-color. You've heard it all before but it still needs to be said. I'm too lazy to bother but I've wondered if the gold elements wouldn't be a bit more eye-catching if the red was shaded brighter and more vibrant. It's kind of a lost cause to bother with it in the first place but I'm throwing it out there anyway.

Speaking of the cape, the attachments thereof are noticeably concentrated around the neck rather than the shoulders. This is a necessary byproduct of situating the collar so high on the outfit. Not only did it lead to pinches and wrinkles in Routh's skin when he angled his head but it made for an awkward highlight of how skinny his neck is.

One other thing about the cape. The pleather. I heard one Apologist sympathizer (the guy said too many negative things about Singerman from day one for me to call him a full-on Apologist; nevertheless, he was onboard with "Reboot with Routh" or whatever that little petition/movement was called) say that because a CG Routh had to be created for CG effects, the cape needed to be leathery or shiny or whatever. I'm sorry but bullshit. Bullfuckingshit. Take it some place else. That ridiculous argument might have made sense back in freaking 1997 but in 2004/5/6? Sorry, no, CG effects had long matured to the point where they could believably reproduce standard fabrics. Singer made an aesthetic choice for aesthetic reasons, not technical ones. If you guys take nothing else away from this diatribe, I want you to remember this. There's simply no excuse for a pleather cape, I don't care what anybody says.

In relation to all this, I know that Kelly Souders said that the SV production had gotten a Singerman outfit out of storage and used that as a prop through out season 10. Even so, I'm more and more starting to think she meant that they might've used it as a rough basis but still created their own version. The SV prop looks basically the same as the above but I swear to think it had a slightly darker shade of blue and a much brighter shade of red (ie, ACTUAL red). The world may never know... but for right now, I think they did a lot more than they copped to at SDCC and through out various interviews and whatnot. Maybe they wanted to be politic about the situation, maybe they didn't want to bore anybody with technical design stuff, maybe something else, but there you go.

In relation to that, this is one of reason why I've never understood why people bother Photoshopping the Singerman bikini. On the one hand, the sheer fact that so damn many Photochops exist should imply that a LOT of people were unhappy with the Singerman version. But on the other hand, dude, THERE'S NO SAVING THAT WRETCHED ABORTION OF A COSTUME. You can't do it. And even if you could, much like Singerman as a "franchise" itself, the effort you'd put into "fixing" it would essentially amount to a whole new thing anyway... so why not make a whole new thing to begin with and save everybody (not least of all yourself) the trouble? I mean, hell, when all was said and done, Welling wore what looked like a blue shirt with CG enhancements. Even THEY knew when to drop any pretense of using that miserable thing.

Anyway, sorry to blather on so much but this pic kind of touched a nerve for me.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  non_amos on Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:12 pm

In reference to that pic you posted, what's up with the tits? The 'man-boobs'? Did Singerman have gynecomastia too? Wink

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  webhead2006 on Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:20 pm

There was so much that was wrong with the SR suit. As for the suit used in smallville, they were wise enough to color correct it to look a little better, and put a cloth cape on it while it was in that box/fos.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  Apologist Puncher on Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:20 pm

I will never, ever forget just how much the Singerman fetish-wetsuit, and the "film" itself, sucked.

Agree on all counts.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  thecolorsblend on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:22 pm

Since this seems to be the most active and most recent of the various anti-Superstalker threads...



Poignant because I've called that pleather abortion a tu-tu on so many occasions...

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  webhead2006 on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:27 pm

Also another point good to smallville every time we saw the SR suit be it in the fos/in the box we never saw the crap trunks be seen. Where as even in the footage we saw and cutting to comic page that it was more full trunks then the crap skimpy ones SR had.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  Apologist Puncher on Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:22 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:Since this seems to be the most active and most recent of the various anti-Superstalker threads...



Poignant because I've called that pleather abortion a tu-tu on so many occasions...

Nice.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  non_amos on Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:42 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:Since this seems to be the most active and most recent of the various anti-Superstalker threads...



Poignant because I've called that pleather abortion a tu-tu on so many occasions...

Y----M-----CA, Y-----M-----CA!

Where Singerman can hang out & just be 'one of the boys'. Wink

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  thecolorsblend on Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:13 am

I was doing an image search for other things when I came across more bizarre Singerman swag.





Now, just to glance at it, you may not see a problem right away. Good coloring (considering the virtually monochromatic source material), good detail, what's the problem?

Well, dude, are those REALLY the movie scenes you want to hype up in the collector's market? You've got Singerman sick and wounded, laying on the ground and cradled by some old chick. Then you've got Singerman sick and wounded, laying on the ground and gazed at lustfully by a bald Keyser Soze. What was the planned second wave? Singerman sick and wounded, laying in a hospital bed and ignored by The Fivehead? Yeah, that'll get 'em lining up!

Did ANYBODY even think about this stuff before they mass produced these suckers? Yeesh...

Now, in WETA's defense, there wasn't much in terms of variety to choose from. The movie had, what, 1.5 action sequences? And I somewhat doubt these selections were made by WETA. At least, not entirely. Rather, it stands to reason that some dipstick affiliated with WB in some way or another made this call. But it all owes back to the original point that someone was asleep at the wheel here. SOMEONE should've said "y'know, we maybe don't want to present our major action hero that we're spending hundreds of millions of dollars to reinvigorate as a total pussy. Yeah, bad enough these things are in the movie but there's no reason to make an idiotic movie decision into an expensive collectible, is there?"

Right? Surely you guys see the problem here. I mean, it's not me, is it? I'm not the crazy one, am I? Oy...

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  non_amos on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:15 am

Maybe they should've made one of the cu-----er, I mean 'bullet shot to the eye'. That one would've certainly gone over well with duh apologists! Laughing

I just hope the marketing for THE MAN OF STEEL is on it's 'A-GAME'. I think it'll certainly be more 'manly' but as always, the trunks are an issue too....................?

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  Apologist Puncher on Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:22 am

thecolorsblend wrote:Now, just to glance at it, you may not see a problem right away. Good coloring (considering the virtually monochromatic source material), good detail, what's the problem?

Ah, ah, ah! Not so fast, good sir!

Take a look at the "prison rape" scene one again. They didn't even color in some green from the "kraptonite" that was making Singerman so weak in the first place! Were we supposed to believe Singerman just had a really bad tummy ache??

Well, as soft as that bitch was, maybe he DID....

Well, dude, are those REALLY the movie scenes you want to hype up in the collector's market? You've got Singerman sick and wounded, laying on the ground and cradled by some old chick. Then you've got Singerman sick and wounded, laying on the ground and gazed at lustfully by a bald Keyser Soze. What was the planned second wave? Singerman sick and wounded, laying in a hospital bed and ignored by The Fivehead? Yeah, that'll get 'em lining up!

Did ANYBODY even think about this stuff before they mass produced these suckers? Yeesh...

Guess who they run these by, before they get greenlit?

The director.

He might not have final say, but he can definitely say "yay" or "nay". Something tells me he didn't even bother LOOKING.

Now, in WETA's defense, there wasn't much in terms of variety to choose from. The movie had, what, 1.5 action sequences? And I somewhat doubt these selections were made by WETA. At least, not entirely. Rather, it stands to reason that some dipstick affiliated with WB in some way or another made this call. But it all owes back to the original point that someone was asleep at the wheel here. SOMEONE should've said "y'know, we maybe don't want to present our major action hero that we're spending hundreds of millions of dollars to reinvigorate as a total pussy. Yeah, bad enough these things are in the movie but there's no reason to make an idiotic movie decision into an expensive collectible, is there?"

See above.

Right? Surely you guys see the problem here. I mean, it's not me, is it? I'm not the crazy one, am I? Oy...

I laugh to myself, thinking that someone, ANYONE, spent money on this shit.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  thecolorsblend on Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:59 pm

Apologist Puncher wrote:Ah, ah, ah! Not so fast, good sir!

Take a look at the "prison rape" scene one again. They didn't even color in some green from the "kraptonite" that was making Singerman so weak in the first place! Were we supposed to believe Singerman just had a really bad tummy ache??
I had no clue what you were talking about at first so I had to find some YouTube clips but, yeah, you called it. I'd forgotten about that. Not sure if it's bad that I forgot a central plot point of the movie or if it's good for my anti-Singerman cred but, either way, that went right by me.

Apologist Puncher wrote:Guess who they run these by, before they get greenlit?

The director.

He might not have final say, but he can definitely say "yay" or "nay". Something tells me he didn't even bother LOOKING.
Good point. But even so, surely someone else had to conceptualize this thing and then someone else had to say "this is the greatest idea since the invention of the idea itself, we'll make a mint!" I'm not letting Singer off the hook for anything but whoever else was involved in those suckers seriously needs STM and a bunch of 80's and 90's action movies before they're allowed to produce any more action hero tie-ins, if you ask me.

Apologist Puncher wrote:I laugh to myself, thinking that someone, ANYONE, spent money on this shit.
Dude, you and I both know there is at least one Apologist out there who owns a complete set of those things... and there's at least one other Apologist who envies him for it.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  non_amos on Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:34 pm

Saw Singerman Peeps in the $5-bin at Walmart today. I know, I know, that initially happened years ago. Nevertheless it's back again with multiple copies. Just sayin'.................... Smile

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  webhead2006 on Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:42 pm

i too seen in in dollar bins and hell even one of those thruway claw machine game deals.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  thecolorsblend on Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:24 am

A friend of mine got a Blu-Ray player and invited me over for a "marathon". More like a double-header since all he had was Clerks 2 and Singerman. Clerks 2... eh. I'm a big fan of the movie. In fact, I'd go so far as it's probably the best Smith has ever made. YMMV. No matter what though, it's not the sort of movie that will greatly benefit from the upgrade to Blu-Ray. His movies are all in the dialogue and the characters more than the visuals. But whatever, it's always worth watching and always welcome.

But Singerman? Well, sheer manners dictate I stick around. He's more lukewarm about the movie than I am. Maybe. He says he's got no major beef against it but, at the same rate, for a guy with allegedly no real axe to grind, he sure never seems to find anything nice to say about it ("that twerpy kid, I forget his name, the dude looks NOTHING like Superman should look", "wtf, a sequel?! Hello, why didn't they reboot?!?", "why didn't they just get Reeve's outfit out of storage? There's no way it'd look worse than that... THING!").

Anyway. We made it as far as the Singerman hoisting the island out of the ocean before my friend had a mini-meltdown and said "fuck it, I can't take this anymore, wanna watch something else?"

But anyway. It'd been a long time since I watched even that much of the movie. Having seen a decent chunk of it on Blu-Ray now on a pretty good TV and sound rig, I'd like to think I've got a bit more perspective on the movie.

For starters, I've got egg on my face about something. I apparently gave Neal "Singerman is better than Donner" Bailey entirely too much credit in simply taking part of his Big Singerman Review at face value. He wrote "Good foreshadow with Lex holding the map. Lex takes the time to have them made and think the plan through. You don't notice it unless you look, but the movie passes over three to four months, and involves a lot of planning on Lex's part."

Don't take my word for it, see for yourself- http://www.supermanhomepage.com/movies/movies.php?topic=sr-movie-review6

He claims to have written that masturbatory review after several viewings while taking meticulous notes. He wanted that review to be his definitive statement about Singerman. And, again, he wrote- "Good foreshadow with Lex holding the map. Lex takes the time to have them made and think the plan through. You don't notice it unless you look, but the movie passes over three to four months, and involves a lot of planning on Lex's part."

Um, no. No it doesn't, motherfucker. Best I can tell, it takes place primarily over just a few days. Lex Lurker visits the Fortress and Superblandon comes back to Earth (Day 1). Superblandon comes back to work as Routh The Bartender, comes back into the public view as Superblandon, saves the plane, stalks Lois Fivehead at her house and, later that night, "saves" Lex Lurker's moll during that Mustang escapade while Lex Lurker robbed the museum (Day 2). The world goes into "Supeblandon is back" hysteria (based on Lex Lurker's newspaper), Skeletor holds the main staff meeting, Lois Fivehead says there was a museum robbery the night before while Superblandon saved "that prostitute" and, later, Superblandon stalks Lois Fiveheard on the roof ("tomorrow they're awarding me the Pulitzer") when she goes up for a smoke break (Day 3). Lois Fivehead turns in her "interview" with Superblandon, is late picking up Damian Cyclopsfiveheadsuperblandon from school, they both get kidnapped by Lex Lurker before the Pulitzer ceremony and then Superblandon acts like a pussy on the island before getting hospitalized (Day 4). From there, the timeline gets a bit murky since we stopped the movie after this point and I can't remember what else happens from there. But you get the idea.

The point? Four days. Not "three to four months". Four days. Maybe argue that a few days actually pass between what I label "Day 1" and "Day 2" up there (you could make the argument but you better be ready to justify it because, fair warning, you can expect me to go on the offensive) but the rest of it is pretty much locked in by dialogue, events and plot points that unfold over the movie. That CAN'T be argued. That means 90% of the relevant plot stuff occurs over a period of 48 hours. Based upon his only learning of the Kryptonite exhibit on the morning of Day 2, you're left with the conclusion that Lex developed the majority of his "diabolical real estate plan", designed and printed all those retarded maps, stole the missile launcher and did all that other shit that Danny Ocean's crew couldn't even dream of in less than 48 hours... and even THAT is generous! The most I'd be willing to allow is one week TOPS from the opening credits to the closing ones. If you're going to argue otherwise, like I said you'd better be damn good and ready to justify yourself. Get your facts in order.

Now, I realize this whole episode is kind of beating a dead horse given the reboot but the majority of Apologists (esp the hardliners) still maintain that Singerman is some kind of airtight, 100% flawless and logical masterpiece of theatrical storytelling but hopefully the above tells a MUCH different story. I don't care what anybody says, the movie just doesn't hold up to analysis... as I would've expected an objective, unbiased reviewer of Neal "Singerman is brilliant" Bailey's caliber to pick up on. Only one of us can be right here. Well, I've cited dialogue, plot developments and, generally, FACTS while he, like a good little Apologist, vaguely appeals to "the fine details" that apparently we simpleton Realists just don't get. You tell me which of two of us is more persuasive.

As to Bailey's obsession with Singerman's dialogue, and to bring it all back, I think it's pretty sad when Kevin Smith's $6 million comeback movie has better, wittier and more insightful dialogue and characters than your $220+ million "epic"... but that could just be me.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  webhead2006 on Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:11 pm

Yup for me from top to bottom the film was all wrong. The look, the costumes, the plot, the acting. Nothing good could be said about the film.

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  non_amos on Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:00 pm

I believe I actually read that lengthy review by Fagley back then. It's been a while but I'm pretty sure I did. Someone refresh my memory in case I'm wrong. Didn't he act like it was better than something like STM or am I getting my facts confused? It seems like there was something he likened it to. Whatever the case, fast-forward to the present day. How much of his words actually ring true now? Suspect

Webhead is right, the look for the film was all wrong. What was up with that awful color scheme anyway? It wasn't just 'the suit' but the entire film looked, well, drab so to speak. The film even opened like what you'd expect in a BATMAN film! Here's hoping 'the brothers Warner' have learned their lesson & will open up THE MAN OF STEEL differently, like maybe with SUPERMAN body-slamming an 18-wheeler or something?!

And one thing that always bugs me! This film by Bryan Singerman was supposed to have been set in a realistic world of sorts, even post-911. So 'Singerman' deserts the Earth for 5 years, lets the entire planet go to 'hell-in-a-handbasket' but as soon as he shows back up & saves the plane, what happens? He gets a standing ovation like he was never gone! Excuse me?! What am I missing here?! This was a realistic world, right? Does that sound like a realistic response to you?! But don't argue this point with duh apologists though, lest you open a 'can of worms'. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

Post  webhead2006 on Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:39 pm

Noppe not at all non..

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Re: Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

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