Summer of Reflection

Having the summer to reflect I would like to sit down and discuss this movie with maturity and intelligence and not come away sounding like some of those who were defending Singer’s piece of crap.  

The facts are simple, Superman is a niche character and fans alone are not going to be enough to put butts in seats, so to lure in the non-fans you are going to need good reviews and word of mouth. Many fans are disappointed with this incarnation, many golden and silver age fans are equally disappointed with Snyder’s vision too.

Man of Steel’s appeal petered out rather swiftly domestically with the last six weeks earnings rather dismal. Once again the talking heads at the Brothers got ahead to themselves as I read an article, wish I could find it now, where some imbecile in week two of the release was estimating a 350 to 400 million domestic box office run, while other pundits were projecting 400 to 500 million.

Well, barely after it came out of their mouths and was reported did the unavoidable decline begin, as it was being reduce on screens to make room for newer releases. Clearly, even the most fervent fans can only afford to see a film just so many times and since this film was not really targeting children that hurt ticket sales, I personally know of several families that did not take there children to see the film because of the violence and killing scene in particular. I know, I know, it is a Superman film there is going to violence and destruction, but even Mark Waid has called out Snyder’s use of destruction porn as too extreme for a film.  

Checking Box Office Mojo this morning it would appear they are no longer tracking MOS’s numbers, odd since it just opened in Japan and that crappy Star Trek Into Darkness still is, and since the last foreign numbers are weeks old. Which, to me would indicate that it has long since been removed from those venues, hell to be honest, you would have to search hard to find it still playing anywhere here, at least it is not playing anywhere in my State. So once again we find ourselves with a film that has made 670 million world wide, but because the Brother’s hire idiots, has now under preformed in their eyes. I can see the boardroom where several whining business types are bawling their eyes out because Iron Man 3 made a billion plus and Superman cannot.

Of course you have the Apologist crowd cheering the fact that adjusted for inflation their benchmark film is merely 50 million or so behind MOS and they feel vindicated that their dream cast and director where correspondingly dismissed from a sequel. For that matter, if you took Superman the Movie and adjusted that for inflation (455 million) it wins easily over the current film.

However, I feel that the Brother’s panicked also, by the bringing in Batman for the next film. This feels like desperation and trying to revive that characters screen presence far sooner than wise and does not give Snyder any chance at developing his envisioning of where he wanted to take this cast of characters. It feels forced and I am sadden by how time after time the Brother’s stumble with these projects, but believe that MOS made what should have been realistically expected, not factoring in the record opening.

I personally was disappointed with MOS, it was not what I have come to believe is a Superman story. Since the film’s release, I have began reading the New 52 and can see how Superman has changed and while I realize that change is inevitable, it is also a difficult thing to accept. I grew up reading and rooting for a silver age Superman, I suppose I am biased toward Christopher Reeve and Richard Donner’s personification of the character.

I do not begrudge anyone for their preference toward a more modern day Superman and for of those of you that enjoyed this film, I am happy that you finally found your Superman. I still find many of the DC direct to home video films enjoyable, such as the most recent Unbound film and do hope for Superman’s success in both markets. So in conclusion I apologize to those I offended by calling MOS crap, one man’s crap is another man’s T-bone and I had no reason to debase your vision of the character.

Rduce wrote:Having the summer to reflect I would like to sit down and discuss this movie with maturity and intelligence and not come away sounding like some of those who were defending Singer’s piece of crap.

We'll see how that plays out.

Rduce wrote:The facts are simple, Superman is a niche character and fans alone are not going to be enough to put butts in seats,

Why do people keep saying this? This is true of any character. Core fans alone can't prop up a movie unless the budget is absurdly low, if even then. But this self-loathing bullshit helps nothing.

Rduce wrote:so to lure in the non-fans you are going to need good reviews and word of mouth.

Both of which MOS had.

Rduce wrote:Many fans are disappointed with this incarnation, many golden and silver age fans are equally disappointed with Snyder’s vision too.

You're vastly oversimplifying the situation. A fair number of veteran fans were upset about MOS but a fair number also dug it. A lot of Apologists were pissed off at that MOS even exists and they're opposition is predicated upon that. A lot of Prima Donners have no vision for Superman beyond Reeve and Donner. They only watch the movies; they don't know Superman beyond the four Reeve films. Anything outside that rubric (which MOS most assuredly is) is destined to fail for them.

Even with a fair number of fans turned off, MOS did solid numbers.

Rduce wrote:Man of Steel’s appeal petered out rather swiftly domestically with the last six weeks earnings rather dismal.

Good Lord, deeper and deeper with you. Check the number of theaters MOS was playing in starting six weeks ago. Hint: It's only about 25% of what it debuted in. Then compare that to how many it's playing in right now (303). Might that account for the past several weeks "dismal" numbers?

Rduce wrote:Once again the talking heads at the Brothers got ahead to themselves as I read an article, wish I could find it now, where some imbecile in week two of the release was estimating a 350 to 400 million domestic box office run, while other pundits were projecting 400 to 500 million.

Well, barely after it came out of their mouths and was reported did the unavoidable decline begin, as it was being reduce on screens to make room for newer releases. Clearly, even the most fervent fans can only afford to see a film just so many times and since this film was not really targeting children that hurt ticket sales, I personally know of several families that did not take there children to see the film because of the violence and killing scene in particular. I know, I know, it is a Superman film there is going to violence and destruction, but even Mark Waid has called out Snyder’s use of destruction porn as too extreme for a film.

This was one of the most crowded and competitive summers in film history. MOS had a big chunk of business bitten out of it in weekend two because of the insane competition it faced. But for that, the $350 mark was definitely in sight... unless you're arguing that MOS wouldn't be about $40-$60 million or so million ahead of where it is right now if it hadn't had to deal with so much competition.

Rduce wrote:Checking Box Office Mojo this morning it would appear they are no longer tracking MOS’s numbers, odd since it just opened in Japan

You have this amazing ability to make the exact wrong call. It truly is stupefying.

The international gross was fixed at $359.5 million for about two weeks. It was updated on Thursday or Friday. I fucking posted about this very thing over in the Box Office thread. The $367 million figure? That wasn't there even a week ago.

Rduce wrote:So once again we find ourselves with a film that has made 670 million world wide, but because the Brother’s hire idiots, has now under preformed in their eyes.

They never said what they "expected" MOS to do. They made projections of what they thought it might do but anybody who isn't happy with Man of Steel's figures should kill himself.

Rduce wrote:I can see the boardroom where several whining business types are bawling their eyes out because Iron Man 3 made a billion plus and Superman cannot.

And here we come to it. Are you a fucking Apologist? I've always wondered about you. Always.

TDK cleared a billion. TDKRises cleared a billion. Avengers cleared a billion. Iron Man 3 cleared a billion. See a pattern here yet? No? Of course not. Apologist. Those movies are all sequels.

Also, lots of sequels don't clear a billion. But the ones that have lately have all been sequels.

Anybody who expected MOS to even come near a billion should kill himself.

Rduce wrote:Of course you have the Apologist crowd cheering the fact that adjusted for inflation their benchmark film is merely 50 million or so behind MOS

Ah yes, your group of friends, right?

Let's do some comparisons. The summer of 2006 will be remembered for being one of the biggest duds the history has ever had. Sure, Pirates 2 was big and there were a few other successes but it wasn't the smash hit that previous and subsequent summers have been. Singerman had a golden opportunity, a $100 million marketing campaign and other advantages going for it... and it took four fucking months for it to hit $200 million.

Singerman left audiences basically saying goodbye to a character they were never properly introduced to. MOS has audiences eager to see what's coming.

Any other analysis is a footnote. Singerman was a flop. MOS was a success. Period.

Rduce wrote:and they feel vindicated that their dream cast and director where correspondingly dismissed from a sequel.

I'd be desperate for any kind of validation too if I were them. Which I'm not. And you are.

Rduce wrote:However, I feel that the Brother’s panicked also, by the bringing in Batman for the next film.

Really? They've spent 13 years talking and dreaming about a Batman/Superman movie and you still somehow think this was a panic decision?

Moron.

Rduce wrote:This feels like desperation and trying to revive that characters screen presence far sooner than wise and does not give Snyder any chance at developing his envisioning of where he wanted to take this cast of characters.

If Snyder and Goyer weren't interested in doing a Batman/Superman team-up film, they could leave. This isn't like a 9-5 job (which I'm sure you'll have some day) where you have to do whatever your boss wants even if it's a fucking retarded idea. If Goyer and Snyder didn't want to do this, they wouldn't. My hunch is that Goyer had a Batman team-up in mind for the second movie when he was pitching the first one.

Rduce wrote:It feels forced and I am sadden by how time after time the Brother’s stumble with these projects, but believe that MOS made what should have been realistically expected, not factoring in the record opening.

MOS is short at least $40 million of what it would've grossed had the second weekend not been so balls-out competitive.

Rduce wrote:I personally was disappointed with MOS, it was not what I have come to believe is a Superman story. Since the film’s release, I have began reading the New 52 and can see how Superman has changed and while I realize that change is inevitable, it is also a difficult thing to accept. I grew up reading and rooting for a silver age Superman, I suppose I am biased toward Christopher Reeve and Richard Donner’s personification of the character.

At last, a confession! Dipshit.

Rduce wrote:I do not begrudge anyone for their preference toward a more modern day Superman and for of those of you that enjoyed this film, I am happy that you finally found your Superman. I still find many of the DC direct to home video films enjoyable, such as the most recent Unbound film and do hope for Superman’s success in both markets. So in conclusion I apologize to those I offended by calling MOS crap, one man’s crap is another man’s T-bone and I had no reason to debase your vision of the character.

Superman is a dynamic and engaging character. There's room in my personal canon for the Silver Age, the Bronze Age, the Byrne Age, Smallville, STM, S3, STAS, Fleischer and other things. It's not just one thing.

In fact, my spirit of ecumenism should hopefully go a long way toward establishing just how much your beloved Singerman sucks. I can get into a lot of things that have the Superman symbol on them. So the fact that even I can't accept Singerman should tell you what crap on a stick it is.

Rduce wrote:Having the summer to reflect I would like to sit down and discuss this movie with maturity and intelligence and not come away sounding like some of those who were defending Singer’s piece of crap.

Too late...

The facts are simple, Superman is a niche character and fans alone are not going to be enough to put butts in seats, so to lure in the non-fans you are going to need good reviews and word of mouth. Many fans are disappointed with this incarnation, many golden and silver age fans are equally disappointed with Snyder’s vision too.

Ah, so you polled them ALL? Please provide your data and proof please.

What's that? You made that shit up?

Shocking...

Man of Steel’s appeal petered out rather swiftly domestically with the last six weeks earnings rather dismal. Once again the talking heads at the Brothers got ahead to themselves as I read an article, wish I could find it now, where some imbecile in week two of the release was estimating a 350 to 400 million domestic box office run, while other pundits were projecting 400 to 500 million.

Take a look at the top-grossing movies of 2013. See if you notice something:

http://www.imdb.com/list/Qdpj8hWtzM4/

1. 'Iron Man 3'

2. 'Despicable Me 2'

3. 'Man Of Steel'

Only ONE film has crossed a billion, and the TWO films above MOS were SEQUELS. This usually happens after a summer where MULTIPLE films broke the billion dollar mark. Last summer was jam-packed, and a bit of "blockbuster fatigue" set in. MOS did just fine, even if YOU Apologists can't stand it.

Well, barely after it came out of their mouths and was reported did the unavoidable decline begin, as it was being reduce on screens to make room for newer releases. Clearly, even the most fervent fans can only afford to see a film just so many times and since this film was not really targeting children that hurt ticket sales, I personally know of several families that did not take there children to see the film because of the violence and killing scene in particular. I know, I know, it is a Superman film there is going to violence and destruction, but even Mark Waid has called out Snyder’s use of destruction porn as too extreme for a film.  

Mark Waid who works for Marvel Comics? THAT Mark Waid?

Yeah.

Checking Box Office Mojo this morning it would appear they are no longer tracking MOS’s numbers, odd since it just opened in Japan and that crappy Star Trek Into Darkness still is, and since the last foreign numbers are weeks old. Which, to me would indicate that it has long since been removed from those venues, hell to be honest, you would have to search hard to find it still playing anywhere here, at least it is not playing anywhere in my State. So once again we find ourselves with a film that has made 670 million world wide, but because the Brother’s hire idiots, has now under preformed in their eyes. I can see the boardroom where several whining business types are bawling their eyes out because Iron Man 3 made a billion plus and Superman cannot.

'Iron Man 3', the FIRST sequel to 'The Avengers' beat MOS? The third film in a trilogy, which had two ULTRA POPULAR sequels prior, beat a reboot that followed a colossal clusterfuck called Singerman Peeps?

Wow, heads at the Bros. Warner must roll!!! Retard.

Of course you have the Apologist crowd cheering the fact that adjusted for inflation their benchmark film is merely 50 million or so behind MOS and they feel vindicated that their dream cast and director where correspondingly dismissed from a sequel. For that matter, if you took Superman the Movie and adjusted that for inflation (455 million) it wins easily over the current film.

Check the bloated theater run for Singerman at the dollar theaters. WB was PRAYING it crawled past $200 million domestic, not for the money, but to save face. MOS will be on Blu-Ray before it could even match Singerman's run.

Get a fucking clue.

However, I feel that the Brother’s panicked also, by the bringing in Batman for the next film. This feels like desperation and trying to revive that characters screen presence far sooner than wise and does not give Snyder any chance at developing his envisioning of where he wanted to take this cast of characters. It feels forced and I am sadden by how time after time the Brother’s stumble with these projects, but believe that MOS made what should have been realistically expected, not factoring in the record opening.

*YAWN*

You'll be there on opening night for the sequel.

I do not begrudge anyone for their preference toward a more modern day Superman and for of those of you that enjoyed this film, I am happy that you finally found your Superman. I still find many of the DC direct to home video films enjoyable, such as the most recent Unbound film and do hope for Superman’s success in both markets. So in conclusion I apologize to those I offended by calling MOS crap, one man’s crap is another man’s T-bone and I had no reason to debase your vision of the character.

You didn't "offend" anyone by calling it crap. You offended people with your aggressively stupid bullshit and name-calling. Own up to what you REALLY said, not what you THINK you said.

Asshole.

Since this is the dumping ground for it, we've all had a chance to reflect somberly on MOS and begin making final judgments about it. Yeah, a Superman movie is a big (and sensitive) subject for a lot of us but after a while objectivity is possible. At this moment, the clearest feeling I have about MOS is gratitude. The movie could've gone so many different ways. Snyder was well aware of that and intentionally played with core audience's expectations through out the entire movie, always threatening to poke a toe out of line in a big bad way but it never happened. He intentionally kept the movie reverential of what Superman's all about.

Very frankly I've wondered what might've happened had Singerman earned an additional $50 million in the US. If it had, I think WB might've gambled on making a sequel. For as horrible as Singerman was, it was survivable. Didn't feel that way at the time as we all remember but when you really think about it, wide audiences mostly just ignored Singerman. They never really bothered to formulate much of an opinion (which is arguably a worse insult than hating it). So Singerman wasn't necessarily the end of the road. If that thing had made another $50 million, it's entirely plausible WB might've taken the risk on doing a sequel and then we would've been truly screwed. Rumors about sub-$200 million budgets were already flying around after Singerman's premiere. If Singer didn't deliver the goods with $220+ million, what freaking hope would he have had with $150 or $175 million?

So apart from being a phenomenal reboot for Superman on its own merits, I sometimes think what MOS is largely a response to and at the same time what it saved us from and... yeah, the best way to describe it is that I feel grateful.

I'll agree with that. I've only see MOS one time so far but I'm really looking forward to the super-duper Blu-Ray. I too wish it had made a little more domestic but like those Iron Man comparisons, maybe it's a good foundation on which to build. I mean, who cared about Iron Man before, right? A 2nd-tier character that became a billion dollar success. And Superman deserves so much better! Let's just hope that MOS has made Supes 'cool' again especially with younger people who thought he was yesterday's news.

What you're about to read is a dream. It's completely hypothetical. And hypothetically, if you were to search the right place, you might have a dream of your own.

Hypothetically. Maybe.

So I watched Man of Steel with the girl tonight and, man, I have to say it really holds up to repeat viewings. I mean, if you separate the movie from the anxiety of seeing it for the first time ("is Snyder going to fuck that up?", "will Goyer fuck this up?", "will Nolan's influence fuck up everything?"), damn, it's a GREAT SUPERMAN film.

I can't remember the last time I saw Singerman. Hell, I can't even tell you how many times I've seen it from start to finish. But I remember a clear sensation that final time I saw it from beginning to end (and yes, that will be the final time; I just can't do that to myself anymore) it had somehow gotten even worse than I remembered. If you separate Singerman from the anxiety of that first viewing, you somehow end up with something that's even worse than you first thought because it's now part of the historical record.

The opposite happens with Man of Steel. Snyder knew how to handle this to make the film captivating on that first viewing and how to make it hold up to repeated viewings.

Again, this is all hypothetical, theoretical and probably completely imaginary (except for the Singerman remarks, which are absolute truth). I, of course, haven't seen the movie since it was in theaters and won't see it again until it comes out on Blu-Ray. Really. Honest!

Mm-hmmm.

I wish I had the movie for a week now too. I'd probably have watched it, like, twice now....

Apologist Puncher wrote:I wish I had the movie for a week now too. I'd probably have watched it, like, twice now....

So hypothetically how might the movie have held up?

thecolorsblend wrote:So hypothetically how might the movie have held up?

HYPOTHETICALLY, it would still hold up to the initial viewings. I would probably say I would have done a few things differently, but the good FAR outweighs the bad.

Hypothetically.

-- Singerman
Production Budget: $270 million
Domestic: $200,081,192
Foreign: $191,000,000
Worldwide: $391,081,192
Theatrical Run: 128 days/18.3 weeks
URL: http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=superman06.htm

-- Man of Steel
Production Budget: $225 million
Domestic: $291,045,518
Foreign: $371,800,000
Worldwide: $662,845,518
Theatrical Run: 98 days/14 weeks
URL: http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=superman2012.htm

These are the numbers. Facts are what matter and the facts in the case of Man of Steel are mostly what I hoped for. I mean, I still resent the infuckingsane number of tentpoles MOS had to contend with. It was competition Singerman didn't have to face. And it's competition that would've kicked Singerman's ass even harder than Pirates 2 did.

But shit, MOS did internationally almost what Singerman did worldwide. Even with several handicaps, MOS came out way ahead. Still, MOS would've been $15 to $20 million higher in the US but for all the other movies that came out. I'd have loved a $305 or $310 million domestic take but woulda coulda shoulda, I guess.

So I now I guess it's the fall of reflection, especially as MOS came out on Blu-Ray today.

And so of course we're now back to the same ol' controversies as before. However, it's more vociferous this time as the haters know they lost the argument over the summer and are now trying to gain back all the ground they lost. And so I've come to a new policy.

Y'see, the same basic thing happened with Smallville. The Apologists threw a lot of bullshit against the wall and desperately hoped it stuck. I was on more forums back then than I am now so it was a pleasure to post comic book panels and other things that left the accuser looking stupid. But the sheer deluge of it was too much for anybody to deal with.

Oddly enough though, most of the gripes were petty and idiotic. Mostly sour grapes. "Waaaaaaaah, [Singerman] tanked at the box office while Smallville's 8th season was greenlit site-unseen, waaaaaah, it's not fair, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I HATE SMALLVILLE!!!" So they focused their energies on stupid arguments that anybody with a room temperature IQ could deal with. In so doing, they overlooked true, out-and-out FLAWS that Smallville had. I don't mean "not like the comics" or anything like that either. I mean unquestionable, irrefutable FLAWS. You can't bullshit your way around it, no comic book panel in the world can excuse it, IT'S A FUCK-UP. That stuff somehow never got mentioned.

My argument was NEVER that Smallville was perfect; merely that it's a damn sight better than it ever got credit for. That means I get to be objective. I can appreciate the strengths of the show but that doesn't mean I had to turn a blind eye to some major blunders either. Stuff that *NOBODY* has ever talked about.

And so my policy became to never mention any of it myself. Not anywhere. Under no circumstances would I *EVER* mention these out-and-out FLAWS of Smallville because literally NOBODY was talking about them and I didn't want to give the opposition free ammo because I wouldn't be able to counter any of that stuff.

That's my new policy for MOS. It has at least two major flaws in it. My policy about MOS was guilty until proven innocent and on 98 things out of 100, MOS was proved innocent. But those two things it fucked up, man, IT FUCKED UP. But I haven't seen ANYBODY mention these two colossal blunders. Not in those cutesy YouTube videos, not on some fucking blog somewhere, not on Facebook, nowhere. Hell, you people may not have even noticed them. But I sure as fuck did.

And my policy is to never discuss them in public. Ever. I will not give the opposition anything new. No, MOS isn't perfect. But it's got flaws that apparently only I recognized and, as with Smallville, my lips are sealed. Other people can find them on their own. They're there if you pay attention. But I won't lift a finger to help anybody with them because the opposition is fucking loud enough as it is.

And yes, had MOS been greeted more warmly, you bet yer ass I'd be talking about them even now. Not in a gripey kind of way; merely as statements of fact that MOS isn't perfect. But since the fanbase went the other way and have focused all their energies on idiotic double standards, fuck 'em, they're on their own.

If any of you have noticed or will notice similar problems with the film, I encourage you to take a similar policy. I won't "moderate" your comment if you choose to share your observation. That's not my job and that isn't the kind of forum the Puncher wants to run. I only ask that you consider who might be lurking in these forums and who might shout your observation from the rooftops. Otherwise, go right ahead. It's a free country (for now).

I'm curious as to the 2 flaws you speak of but since you ain't gonna say, I guess I'll have to try & figure them out from the Blu-Ray I bought Tuesday. That is, when I ever find time to actually watch it!

Head over to supermancinema, and check out the Apologist named "Metallo". He is trying his hardest to troll people and "convince" them that 'MOS' sucked. His biggest complaint?

"MOS wuz jess ripped of STM an SII"

And then goes and DEFENDS Singerman!

It's HI-LARIOUS.

What a retard. The fuckwidget probably doesn't even see the contradiction there.

And by the by, Snyder might not have had to play it as safe as he did and throw in the kitchen sink in terms of action had Singer not pissed away the great opportunity for a new Superman franchise back in 2006.

I guess this is the recollections thread now.

Anyway. Just rewatched MOS. I've been reading a lot of Silver Age comics, watching a lot of Smallville and basically taking in stuff other than MOS for several months now so coming back to MOS was a pretty big change of pace.

I think I said in some previous post up there that for as bad as Singerman is, it only gets worse with age. And I believe it too. But MOS? Man, the more time goes by, the easier it is to forget bullshit fan politics and just enjoy that nice, long Krypton sequence, all the action scenes, Cavill, Adams and all that stuff. It's just a good time at the movies. Lots of fun, Superman with modern effects, freaking awesome cape and other stuff.

MOS just gets better with age.

True story!   

Just read this piece on MOS: http://www.outlawvern.com/2014/07/28/man-of-steel-gets-a-bum-rap/

It's refreshing to read after so many armchair geeks circlejerk over bashing the film for the dumbest shit to get angry over (like the world engine killing everyone, yet so many online critic douche-bags always pin it on Superman and call him a mass murderer).

^ This.

And here's the thing, I firmly believe the majority of Snyder's detractors are very well aware of all this. What they're really objecting to is the notion of a reboot itself. Pick your favorite agenda. Whether they're Apologists, Prima Donners, the kooky Smallville fringe or just general haters, they all seem to wear their preferences on their sleeves. All of them have an agenda for hating on MOS when you dig beneath the surface in most cases but they disguise their preference as some bullshit "moral outrage". That's my main theory.

The alternative is that they're all just blithering idiots. I'm choosing to put my faith in their brains rather than their conscience.

I've read most of that article but due to other obligations I haven't yet finished it. It is rather lengthy. Anyway, I find myself so far agreeing with pretty much everything the guy is saying! MOS has gotten a bum rap from so-called 'fans' who will probably carry their gripes right into the next film!

I see some hypocrisy here too. 'Fans' lambast MOS because Superman killed Zod, right? But these same 'fans' are eating up ARROW left & right & making it a hit for the CW! Now, I haven't watched an episode past the Pilot even though I bought the 1st Season on DVD back on 'Black Thursday' AKA Thanksgiving because it was dirt cheap. Anyway, the point. Someone on here, I forget who exactly, made the point that Arrow regularly KILLS in cold blood! And even though I haven't yet watched past the Pilot, I have to agree because I remember him doing that from Day One!

So you tell me which is worse. In this corner we have Superman, who kills a genocidal maniac as powerful as himself who was bent on destroying all life on Planet Earth but the straw that broke the camel's back was when Zod attempted to fry that innocent family. So Superman acted as a soldier or a police officer basically, no choice. But in the other corner we have 'Arrow' who just seemingly kills & gets away with it. So what if they were bad guys, they had it coming, right?

Seeing a double standard yet? And I think this guy pretty much feels the same way. And like Colors pointed out, it doesn't help that these apologists are unwilling to give the new guy a chance, i.e., Henry Cavill, & therefore allow a new take because they can't let go of their old one!   

I'm honestly not married to the idea of Superman never killing anybody. He killed Doomsday in the comics (yes yes yes, Doomsday came back but none of us knew he had that ability at the time) and nobody seemed too put off by it... likely because we recognized that Superman had a moral obligation to end the threat posed by Doomsday. There was a higher good being served.

No, Superman shouldn't kill bank robbers and purse-snatchers and other ridiculous bullshit. The knee-jerk reaction nitwits always make in these discussions is to immediately compare that to the Punisher, who kills anybody any time for any reason if they've broken the law. Nobody's recommending that here. So nobody had better use that as a retort. Remember, first, that I have control of the "Ban" button and, second, that I suffer fools badly.

My point here is that there ARE circumstances where Superman not only could but SHOULD kill. A Mxy who's gone totally crackers and is bent on destroying all of reality is a pretty good example of a killing that NEEDS to happen. In fact, the more I analyze WHTTMOT, the more I realize that Alan Moore did about as damage to Superman in comics with that abortion of a story as Bryan Singer did to Superman in film with freaking Singerman.

But anyway, the same principle is true in MOS. Did Superman WANT to do it? Obviously not. But he was faced with an unstoppable threat. There are instances where Superman has a moral obligation to do whatever's necessary to end the threat. Sometimes all that takes is a punch in the face. But sometimes it takes heavier measures than that. And when it does, of all things and of all times, that truly is a job for Superman. Because if he DOESN'T do it, nobody else CAN.

Make sense?