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Kicking Singerman while it's down (was: An Interesting Observation)

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Post  Apologist Puncher Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:51 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:A friend of mine got a Blu-Ray player and invited me over for a "marathon". More like a double-header since all he had was Clerks 2 and Singerman. Clerks 2... eh. I'm a big fan of the movie. In fact, I'd go so far as it's probably the best Smith has ever made. YMMV. No matter what though, it's not the sort of movie that will greatly benefit from the upgrade to Blu-Ray. His movies are all in the dialogue and the characters more than the visuals. But whatever, it's always worth watching and always welcome.

I liked 'Clerks 2'. Nothing "groundbreaking", but a good film.

But Singerman? Well, sheer manners dictate I stick around. He's more lukewarm about the movie than I am. Maybe. He says he's got no major beef against it but, at the same rate, for a guy with allegedly no real axe to grind, he sure never seems to find anything nice to say about it ("that twerpy kid, I forget his name, the dude looks NOTHING like Superman should look", "wtf, a sequel?! Hello, why didn't they reboot?!?", "why didn't they just get Reeve's outfit out of storage? There's no way it'd look worse than that... THING!").

Personally, and my friends already know how much I despise that film so they ain't gonna ask me to see it anyway, I would pull a "Woah, gee, look at the time...." and then high-tail it out of there.

But that's me.

Anyway. We made it as far as the Singerman hoisting the island out of the ocean before my friend had a mini-meltdown and said "fuck it, I can't take this anymore, wanna watch something else?"

You should pick a cheap Blu-Ray for him off Amazon, something GOOD, and then take it to him and destroy the shit out of his Singerman Peeps.

But anyway. It'd been a long time since I watched even that much of the movie. Having seen a decent chunk of it on Blu-Ray now on a pretty good TV and sound rig, I'd like to think I've got a bit more perspective on the movie.

Interesting.

For starters, I've got egg on my face about something. I apparently gave Neal "Singerman is better than Donner" Bailey entirely too much credit in simply taking part of his Big Singerman Review at face value. He wrote "Good foreshadow with Lex holding the map. Lex takes the time to have them made and think the plan through. You don't notice it unless you look, but the movie passes over three to four months, and involves a lot of planning on Lex's part."

Don't take my word for it, see for yourself- http://www.supermanhomepage.com/movies/movies.php?topic=sr-movie-review6

Damn. I said from DAY ONE that Apologists liked to make shit up in order to "justify" their "feelings" on that turd. I didn't know ol' Dragon Breath himself took it that far.

So, because it would take that long to have maps made and installed, it just HAD to have taken that long during the "movie"? Nothing else had to verify this, no change in seasons (Which is strike 1-3 on THAT little "theory"), no mention of time passing, no run-down of things that HAD to have transpired in the convening months? It just happened because it HAD to happen?

Eat a dick, shit for brains.

He claims to have written that masturbatory review after several viewings while taking meticulous notes. He wanted that review to be his definitive statement about Singerman. And, again, he wrote- "Good foreshadow with Lex holding the map. Lex takes the time to have them made and think the plan through. You don't notice it unless you look, but the movie passes over three to four months, and involves a lot of planning on Lex's part."

I wonder if he had to watch it that many times because he kept getting thrown out for playing with himself in the sparsely filled theater?

Um, no. No it doesn't, motherfucker. Best I can tell, it takes place primarily over just a few days. Lex Lurker visits the Fortress and Superblandon comes back to Earth (Day 1). Superblandon comes back to work as Routh The Bartender, comes back into the public view as Superblandon, saves the plane, stalks Lois Fivehead at her house and, later that night, "saves" Lex Lurker's moll during that Mustang escapade while Lex Lurker robbed the museum (Day 2). The world goes into "Supeblandon is back" hysteria (based on Lex Lurker's newspaper), Skeletor holds the main staff meeting, Lois Fivehead says there was a museum robbery the night before while Superblandon saved "that prostitute" and, later, Superblandon stalks Lois Fiveheard on the roof ("tomorrow they're awarding me the Pulitzer") when she goes up for a smoke break (Day 3). Lois Fivehead turns in her "interview" with Superblandon, is late picking up Damian Cyclopsfiveheadsuperblandon from school, they both get kidnapped by Lex Lurker before the Pulitzer ceremony and then Superblandon acts like a pussy on the island before getting hospitalized (Day 4). From there, the timeline gets a bit murky since we stopped the movie after this point and I can't remember what else happens from there. But you get the idea.

The point? Four days. Not "three to four months". Four days. Maybe argue that a few days actually pass between what I label "Day 1" and "Day 2" up there (you could make the argument but you better be ready to justify it because, fair warning, you can expect me to go on the offensive) but the rest of it is pretty much locked in by dialogue, events and plot points that unfold over the movie. That CAN'T be argued. That means 90% of the relevant plot stuff occurs over a period of 48 hours. Based upon his only learning of the Kryptonite exhibit on the morning of Day 2, you're left with the conclusion that Lex developed the majority of his "diabolical real estate plan", designed and printed all those retarded maps, stole the missile launcher and did all that other shit that Danny Ocean's crew couldn't even dream of in less than 48 hours... and even THAT is generous! The most I'd be willing to allow is one week TOPS from the opening credits to the closing ones. If you're going to argue otherwise, like I said you'd better be damn good and ready to justify yourself. Get your facts in order.

It was a week, tops.

Now, I realize this whole episode is kind of beating a dead horse given the reboot but the majority of Apologists (esp the hardliners) still maintain that Singerman is some kind of airtight, 100% flawless and logical masterpiece of theatrical storytelling but hopefully the above tells a MUCH different story. I don't care what anybody says, the movie just doesn't hold up to analysis... as I would've expected an objective, unbiased reviewer of Neal "Singerman is brilliant" Bailey's caliber to pick up on. Only one of us can be right here. Well, I've cited dialogue, plot developments and, generally, FACTS while he, like a good little Apologist, vaguely appeals to "the fine details" that apparently we simpleton Realists just don't get. You tell me which of two of us is more persuasive.

What's humorous about that is, because they know their numbers are so FEW, they have it in their heads that they are BETTER than the majority, because they "get it" and WE "don't".

Except of course, that we live in a little place called reality.

As to Bailey's obsession with Singerman's dialogue, and to bring it all back, I think it's pretty sad when Kevin Smith's $6 million comeback movie has better, wittier and more insightful dialogue and characters than your $220+ million "epic"... but that could just be me.

Meh, when one director is too busy plowing young boy ass, and the other is thankful to have the "used to be cute" wife he DOES have, you get what you get.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:58 pm

non_amos wrote:And one thing that always bugs me! This film by Bryan Singerman was supposed to have been set in a realistic world of sorts, even post-911. So 'Singerman' deserts the Earth for 5 years, lets the entire planet go to 'hell-in-a-handbasket' but as soon as he shows back up & saves the plane, what happens? He gets a standing ovation like he was never gone! Excuse me?! What am I missing here?! This was a realistic world, right? Does that sound like a realistic response to you?! But don't argue this point with duh apologists though, lest you open a 'can of worms'. Rolling Eyes

I've said that from the beginning over at Singer's Superman Sucks. People would NOT just cheer someone who the media HAD to have been lambasting for years for deserting them like that. My idea back then would have been far more powerful.

Singerman sets the plane down to stunned silence. Does his lame-ass Reeve impersonation, and heads outside. Still silent. Then a lone voice speaks up:

"Where were you?"

The people stare at Singerman, waiting for a reply. He hangs his head, unable to answer, and flies off.


End scene.
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Post  non_amos Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:39 pm

Apologist Puncher wrote:
non_amos wrote:And one thing that always bugs me! This film by Bryan Singerman was supposed to have been set in a realistic world of sorts, even post-911. So 'Singerman' deserts the Earth for 5 years, lets the entire planet go to 'hell-in-a-handbasket' but as soon as he shows back up & saves the plane, what happens? He gets a standing ovation like he was never gone! Excuse me?! What am I missing here?! This was a realistic world, right? Does that sound like a realistic response to you?! But don't argue this point with duh apologists though, lest you open a 'can of worms'. Rolling Eyes

I've said that from the beginning over at Singer's Superman Sucks. People would NOT just cheer someone who the media HAD to have been lambasting for years for deserting them like that. My idea back then would have been far more powerful.

Singerman sets the plane down to stunned silence. Does his lame-ass Reeve impersonation, and heads outside. Still silent. Then a lone voice speaks up:

"Where were you?"

The people stare at Singerman, waiting for a reply. He hangs his head, unable to answer, and flies off.


End scene.

Awesome point! And ya know what? If they had actually done something like that, it might have actually got some real acting out of Blandon. Just visualize this. If Christopher Reeve had still been alive & well & also still young enough to have reprised his role. Let's say maybe this project had actually taken place in the 90's for example & they got Reeve back who, although a little older, it really would've been 'Superman Returns'! But my point? Let's say the premise was the same as what we got with Singerman per the example you gave, what should've been the reaction in other words. What do you think Reeve would've done? If they had asked him where he went, then I can visualize Reeve pulling off a performance worthy of an Oscar! His emotions alone would've carried the scene as well as the ensuing aftermath. And it would've been a great plot point as well.

But what did we really get? We got an 'ultra-realistic' world playing MAKE-BELIEVE. That's what we got! And a 2x4 aping Reeve. And forget what could've been. That went right out the window. Great storytelling there Bryan Singerman! Evil or Very Mad
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Post  thecolorsblend Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:45 pm

Conceptually, Singerman just might've worked better if it'd come out in the early 90's. You might've needed to recast Lois but the big picture could've been made to work as Singerman's script demands an older cast (late 20's/early 30's Jimmy, late 30's Superman and Lois, late 60's Perry, etc).

You tie it all in with a filmmaker with enough brains to not give Superman a bastard kid and... well, even then you still wouldn't necessarily have an ideal movie but at least it would've had a compelling premise to it led by some real actors. Say whatever you want about the Salkinds but they would've had the brains to not write a franchise-killer like Singerman.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:59 pm

non_amos wrote:Awesome point!

I'm full of 'em.

And ya know what? If they had actually done something like that, it might have actually got some real acting out of Blandon. Just visualize this. If Christopher Reeve had still been alive & well & also still young enough to have reprised his role. Let's say maybe this project had actually taken place in the 90's for example & they got Reeve back who, although a little older, it really would've been 'Superman Returns'! But my point? Let's say the premise was the same as what we got with Singerman per the example you gave, what should've been the reaction in other words. What do you think Reeve would've done? If they had asked him where he went, then I can visualize Reeve pulling off a performance worthy of an Oscar! His emotions alone would've carried the scene as well as the ensuing aftermath. And it would've been a great plot point as well.

Let me start off by saying Christopher Reeve was an AC-TOR. It's what he wanted to do, it was what he trained to do. He could have even made Singerman watchable. Hard as that is to say....

*EDIT* You know what, I am going to start a new topic on just this idea....

But what did we really get? We got an 'ultra-realistic' world playing MAKE-BELIEVE. That's what we got! And a 2x4 aping Reeve. And forget what could've been. That went right out the window. Great storytelling there Bryan Singerman! Evil or Very Mad

We got a hot shit sandwich, smothered in shit.
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Post  thecolorsblend Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:44 am

Apologist Puncher wrote:Let me start off by saying Christopher Reeve was an AC-TOR. It's what he wanted to do, it was what he trained to do. He could have even made Singerman watchable. Hard as that is to say....
This has been something I come back to every time someone whines that BJ should've been a given a second chance at the character. I'll be the first to admit that Singerman had a lot more flaws and problems than STM did but STM... good as it is, it's got some problems. Uneven script, a major tonal shift starting at the top of the Metropolis sequence, goofy villains, etc. But Reeve is so good that you tend to look past a lot of things that were maybe less than perfect.

BJ The Bartender had essentially the same opportunity. Yeah, Singerman was always going to be worse than STM. But he didn't have to stink up the screen with his stiff mannerisms and delivery. A talented actor could've made the most of the screen time BJ was given and made something that at least stood out for not completely sucking.

Reeve succeeded handily in his task. Routh made a bad situation worse.

To me, there's no clearer argument that Routh shouldn't have been given a second chance. Hell, he shouldn't have been given a first one, as far as I'm concerned.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:24 pm

It's like I said before:

Bruce Lee WASN'T given Oscar-caliber scripts in his films, but he STILL captivated his audience. Why? Charisma. Talent. Energy. Take your pick.

And all things BJ Routh LACKS.
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Post  thecolorsblend Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:40 pm

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/greg-rucka-a-pg-man-448386

Greg Rucka pleads for a PG-rated Superman film. My favorite line of the thing?

Greg Rucka wrote:The last time we saw Superman on the big screen, he was an absent-father who got prison-yard shanked with a Kryptonite shiv.
Oh yeah, he obviously loved Singerman...

But the real point?

Greg Rucka wrote:I just know that if you make a Superman movie you can’t take kids to, you’ve done something wrong.
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Post  non_amos Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:25 am

Does PG-13 even mean the same thing it used to? I think there was a time that it did but now? Not so sure. Without looking it up ain't any number of comics films rated PG-13 anyway? And since this is Superman I think the only thing 'gratuitous' we'll be seeing is violence, as in Superman's fist on Zod's chin.
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Post  thecolorsblend Wed May 01, 2013 3:06 pm

This could be Kevin Spacey's biggest role in years...

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/01/kevin-spacey-yells-photobomb-proceeds-to-photobomb-boston-tourist-photo
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Post  non_amos Thu May 02, 2013 1:56 am

thecolorsblend wrote:This could be Kevin Spacey's biggest role in years...

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/01/kevin-spacey-yells-photobomb-proceeds-to-photobomb-boston-tourist-photo

Wow. Just checked that out. The dude's really rating about now ain't he? Maybe he can stop by the bowling alley & pick up ol' BJ & they can go get a burger & fries at BJ's other place of employment. While they're at it maybe Spacey can find his beard the Five-Head & they can start a petition to bring back 'duh sequel that's just around the corner'. Razz
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Post  thecolorsblend Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:46 pm

Listening to Fat Man on Batman 37: Jim Lee: Giving Batman the Boot during which the subject of Man of Steel comes up. It's clear that Jim Lee has seen the movie (although I think he came out with that a few weeks ago) and he carefully avoids spoilers but neither he nor Smith can pass up an opportunity to kick Singerman a few times. Lee has to be careful because he still represents an arm of WB so he can't bitch about it to the same extent we do but you don't have to read between very many lines to realize Singerman is close to the opposite of what he wants from any Superman film... and he goes on to say that Man of Steel is a lot more in line with his sensibilities. He says he was more of a Superman kid growing up and frankly has no reason to lie so if he approves of MOS, there's a very strong chance we will too. I'm sick of providing links so if you want to check out the podcast, use Google.
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Post  thecolorsblend Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:49 am

As Apologists love to say (absent context), Singerman made about $400 million worldwide. But right now, MOS is at about $200 million worldwide.

It's already halfway there after one freaking weekend.

-- MOS (opening weekend)
Domestic- $125,080,000
Foreign- $71,600,000
Worldwide- $196,680,000
http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=superman2012.htm
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Post  thecolorsblend Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:34 am

Man, what a ride! In October (I think) 2004, word comes down the pipeline that Bryan Singer would direct the next movie. I can't honestly tell you the news filled me with joy but at the same time I'd be lying if I said I had any clue how horrifying the final product would be. In any case, you all know what happened. The dud fell with a thud.

For pointing out the obvious and being intellectually honest, we were banned from forums, harassed and at least two of us were cyber-stalked. We always believed Superman could be more and better than Bryan Singer could ever hope to do and an icon of his stature deserved it.

Looking back on it all, I have to say that it's been an absolute honor to do this with you all. We won. It was a pain in the ass and I doubt our contribution will ever be acknowledged... but we won.

Fuck you, Singerman!
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Post  non_amos Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:55 am

You're probably right. Realists in general were no doubt more instrumental in Superman being rebooted than we'll ever be given credit for. Out of all that harassment over at duh Homopage, it turns out we were right! It'd be interesting to know just how those apologists feel about it now but even though MOS is now in theaters I'm still not checking out duh Homopage enough to know where they currently stand.

It'd also be interesting to know what 'Steve' thinks, the one & only Archangel. I just wish someone could fish him out so we could give him the thrashing that he deserves.
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Post  thecolorsblend Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:09 am

non_amos wrote:You're probably right. Realists in general were no doubt more instrumental in Superman being rebooted than we'll ever be given credit for. Out of all that harassment over at duh Homopage, it turns out we were right! It'd be interesting to know just how those apologists feel about it now but even though MOS is now in theaters I'm still not checking out duh Homopage enough to know where they currently stand.
I forget which MOS news item it was but one commenter openly scorned Singerman. Words to the effect of "I love MOS, it's everything [Singerman] should have been but Singer was too inept to deliver" or some such. No question which side of the aisle he's on.

Originally Apologists tried to argue the movie actually was profitable ("$391 million worldwide!!"), then they reminded us how critically adored Singerman was and then they played the "wide audiences are sick of tights" thing (this one was my favorite; my first post up there originally tracked this excuse's evolution over the years but I deleted it for tl;dr reasons) so I suspect their last line of defense (and even this won't protect them against MOS defectors) will be that Singerman is a "thinking man's action movie" and it's "just too deep and emotive" for haters like us to understand. The problem is I do understand it and the movie fucking sucks. If falling in love with Singerman requires killing a few hundred brain cells, I think I'll just stick with my hate, thankyouverymuch.

Oh, one other thing. I checked out the MOS wiki page a while ago and came to find out that there truly were meetings fairly early in 2008 regarding rebooting Singerman. Remember how we were constantly assured at the time that Singerman 2- Bartender of Pleather was "just around the corner"? Apparently the rumors to the contrary were absolutely true. That means that less than a year and a half after Singerman crashed and burned in theaters, WB had made the firm decision to do a page 1 reboot. So much for that nonsense about Singer doing Valkyrie first and then Singerman 2. Yes yes yes, the reboot is obviously now a reality, I know that, but I'm just saying it's amazing how solid and reliable our intel actually was regarding Superman's future on the big screen.

non_amos wrote:It'd also be interesting to know what 'Steve' thinks, the one & only Archangel. I just wish someone could fish him out so we could give him the thrashing that he deserves.
If he knows what's good for him, that hoser will have dived into a hole and pulled it in after him. The dumbest thing he could possibly do would be to register and jump in the conversation here.
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Post  thecolorsblend Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:14 am

Looking around miscellaneous Superman forums, it seems that Man of Steel's immediate legacy has been to make it okay to take a fair and objective viewpoint of the Reeve franchise. I'm on the record for loving some stuff but not others so this stuff isn't news for any of you. But what it is new is that other people are finally saying similar things about better heat vision effects, flying effects, real fist fights, intergalactic invasions, widespread destruction, liberties with the mythos as they were in the late 70's and all the other things. Once upon a time, it was politically incorrect to venture even fair and objective criticism about some of Donner's choices as he'd become so deified; the reversal of that is recent and is due exclusively to MOS.

Of course, the dark side to all this is that it's now more fashionable than ever to bash on Superman III (which I love) and Superman IV (which had good intentions) but I guess you take the bad with the good.
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Post  thecolorsblend Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:07 am

Let's face it, as Superman fans we now live in a post-MOS world. When I saw this clip on YouTube...



It's even harder to watch these days than ever before. First, as an action beat, I've never been too impressed. Worse though, the sequence never really gets moving until the 3:21 mark... by which time it's almost over.

But second, at 2:15, Singerman looks over his shoulder at the flaming plane and zips down to stabilize it. You can't help but think how Snyder would've handled this scene. If he'd been the director, Superman would likely have glanced down, blurred (or whatever that effect was) out of the frame, the camera would've swiveled to follow his trajectory, we would've cut to a medium close up of Superman zooming along with the bright blue sky and fluffy white clouds on side of the frame, Superman in the middle and that thick column of black smoke on the other side of the frame, a quick cut to the cockpit where the pilots are trying like crazy to get the plane back under control, another medium shot of Superman exterior of the plane from a different angle and then followed him as he grabbed part of the plane to get it stabilized. Snyder would understand that you have to keep Superman BIG inside the frame. It helps sell the majestic, heroic, powerful angle. Stick with medium shots, heavy close ups or otherwise positioning Superman HUGE inside of the frame.

Singer, being a rank amateur, used a lot of wide shots where Routh looked like a speck against that huge plane and it's hard to convince yourself he has any prayer of stopping it... doubly hard with Blandon's lack of physical size.

I just wanted to scream after watching all this. There was insane potential here and Singer completely squandered it. It's even more frustrating when you already know Snyder would've knocked it out of the park, sent someone to bring it back and then knocked it out of the park again just to prove he can.

Ugh...
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Post  James Stocks Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:45 pm

If it did anything, it showed the potential Superman had with today's f/x, although I HAAAAAAATED that moment where he softly places the plane on the stadium because it's obviously a CGI model instead of the actor. I have no idea why they thought that was passable. A low point for Rhythm and Hues. And yeah, I agree with you on too many shots with Superman from a distance making him small. That's not visually impressive. It reminds me of the criticism Ebert put for SPIDER-MAN where he thought the filmmakers made Spider-Man look more like Mighty Mouse because the amount of wide shots of him swinging.

Another thing that bugged me about the plane sequence was how Lois kept banging inside the plane like a pinball. She should have been crippled as a result, if worse, strawberry jam.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:45 pm

Anyone else think BJ Routh used his employee discount to see 'MOS' at the theater he no doubt works at now?
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Post  non_amos Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:27 am

Apologist Puncher wrote:Anyone else think BJ Routh used his employee discount to see 'MOS' at the theater he no doubt works at now?

 I thought he worked at both the bowling alley and the burger joint. When did he change jobs? Smile

Nevertheless you know what I'd like? I'd like for some journalist who is obviously pro-MOS to interview him extensively & especially about how he felt after seeing MOS. You know he saw it. Curiosity no doubt forced him to in that case. So let said journalist really lay the smackdown on him in the form of really pointed questions.


"Well Blandon, how do you feel about Henry Cavill getting the role & you getting the boot? How do you feel about your version looked like some Bryan Singer-induced wet dream while Henry Cavill's version looked like a 'man's man' (not your definition of that Blandon). And how many times now have you seen MAN OF STEEL exactly?"

And so on & so forth. cheers
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Post  James Stocks Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:02 am

The better person to throw those kind of questions is Singer, I'd like to see his reaction. I'm pretty sure Routh will just say something along the lines "I had a blast", or something.
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Post  thecolorsblend Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:07 am

James Stocks wrote:The better person to throw those kind of questions is Singer, I'd like to see his reaction. I'm pretty sure Routh will just say something along the lines "I had a blast", or something.
Gotta agree. I'm much more interested in that interview. Of course, the answer is likely "oh, I've been busy with other things, haven't had a chance to see it, in fact I don't really watch any movies ever, and when I do they're all directed by Richard Donner" or some such.
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Post  James Stocks Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:15 am

I've been trying to search for the video that had Bryan Singer's reaction to Pirates obliterating his film at the box office, but no such luck. I just remember how confused he looked and said something along the lines "I guess that's good... cause people are going to the movies??", yeah saying that in the form of a question.
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Post  thecolorsblend Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:24 am

I have no idea what you mean. There was no such interview! And even if there was, it couldn't be as bad as you say!

Oh wait...

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