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'Before Watchmen'

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Post  thecolorsblend Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:10 am

The major goal?

'Before Watchmen' - Page 3 Its-all-about-the-money-L-dTKi46

Anything else is but a footnote.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:16 am

'Before Watchmen' - Page 3 Stacks-of-money
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Post  webhead2006 Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:36 pm

Yup and like he said its a waste to try and continue the story since it was already complete as is. But greed and dollars is all they want.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:01 pm

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2012/03/06/dc-entertainment-launches-new-websites

'Before Watchmen' - Page 3 Bermejofinalwithsmaller
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Post  thecolorsblend Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:02 am

Apologist Puncher wrote:http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2012/03/06/dc-entertainment-launches-new-websites

'Before Watchmen' - Page 3 Bermejofinalwithsmaller
It's a cool looking picture, I'll give it that much.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:41 am

thecolorsblend wrote:It's a cool looking picture, I'll give it that much.

Except Silk Spectre looks like a tranny:

'Before Watchmen' - Page 3 Gael-tranny
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Post  thecolorsblend Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:47 am

Apologist Puncher wrote:
thecolorsblend wrote:It's a cool looking picture, I'll give it that much.

Except Silk Spectre looks like a tranny:

'Before Watchmen' - Page 3 Gael-tranny
Perfect, the Apologists will love it then. affraid
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Post  Apologist Puncher Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:50 am

thecolorsblend wrote:Perfect, the Apologists will love it then. affraid

'Before Watchmen' - Page 3 Zing_zap_pow_card-p137961838814103529z85p0_400
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Post  non_amos Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:02 am

Don't drop the soap LOL! Wink
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Post  webhead2006 Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:18 am

LOl, but ya a decent photo there.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:13 pm

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/03/13/if-dc-want-to-soil-themselves-in-public-and-kill-the-reputations-of-a-number-of-otherwise-possibly-halfway-decent-writers-and-artists-then-im-certainly-not-going-to-stop-them-and-i-shall-take/

“If DC Want To Soil Themselves In Public And Kill The Reputations Of A Number Of Otherwise Possibly Halfway-Decent Writers And Artists, Then I’m Certainly Not Going To Stop Them. And I Shall Take My Fun And My Pleasure However It Comes” – Alan Moore On Before Watchmen

Alan Moore has been talking to Kurt Amacker about Before Watchmen, Watchmen, DC Comics and League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Now, Alan has said a lot of this before, sometimes to me, but not all in the same place, in such a concise fashion and so directed. Here are a few snippets, to encourage you to read the whole thing. The first is in the headline of this article, here come the rest;

That was the understanding upon which we did Watchmen–that they understood that we wanted to actually own the work that we’d done, and that they were a “new DC Comics,” who were going to be more responsive to creators. And, they’d got this new contract worked out which meant that when the work went out of print, then the rights to it would revert to us–which sounded like a really good deal. I’d got no reason not to trust these people. They’d all been very, very friendly. They seemed to be delighted with the amount of extra comics they were selling. Even on that level, I thought, “Well, they can see that I’m getting them an awful lot of good publicity, and I’m bringing them a great deal of money. So, if they are even competent business people, they surely won’t be going out of their way to screw us in any way.” Now, I’ve since seen the Watchmen contract, which obviously we didn’t read very closely at the time. It was the first contract that I’d ever seen–and I believe that it was a relatively rare event for a contract to actually exist in the comics business.

The money would’ve been from DC. He was acting as an intermediary. He told me they were planning to do these prequels and sequels, and that he had been offered something in the region of a quarter of a million dollars to oversee the project–that it would be handled by the top talent in the industry, to which I said some quite intemperate things. I said that, as far as Watchmen was concerned, I didn’t really think that there was any talent in the mainstream comics industry. If there had have been, they presumably, sometime over the past 20 or 25 years, would have perhaps come up with something that was as good as Watchmen–or as notable or as memorable–after they’d already been shown how to do it. So yeah, I was angry and I said some things which I still stand behind. And, that was the end of it. And, that was the end of my friendship with Dave Gibbons: because he hadn’t phoned up and thanked me and he had done the one thing that I’d asked him not to. When I mentioned this in an interview, he phoned me up again to say, “Oh, thanks for that money, Alan.”

It strikes me that, yes, I can understand why they took on Before Watchmen. It will probably be the only opportunity they get in their careers to actually be attached to a project that anybody outside of comics has ever heard of. So, I can see how that would be a great lure. I don’t think I would have done it, though, because to go down in history as the people who did the lame rewrites and prequels to Watchmen–well, that’s not for me. But, of course everybody has to make their own choices. So, no, obviously I won’t want anything to do with any of the people who are attached to this project at any point in the future, but that isn’t a huge loss.

So, what we’re doing is taking these characters that are mostly in the public domain. If they’re not in the public domain, they are only referred to glancingly, as a bit of a cultural joke.

It’s a bit different to bringing out a comic called Rorschach.

I don’t mind people referencing my characters. It happens quite a bit. I don’t even mind, like I say, with characters like John Constantine–who I’ve got no interest in anymore. I expected him to be handled by other writers.

But there’s no real comparison. In The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I am not adapting characters. I am flat out stealing them in what I think is an honorable way.

I have a huge respect for my audience. On the occasions when I meet them, they seem, I like to think, to be intelligent and scrupulous people. If people do want to go out and buy these Watchmen prequels, they would be doing me an enormous favor if they would just stop buying my other books. When I think of my audience, I like to have good thoughts and think about how lucky I am to have one that is as intelligent as mine and as moral as mine.

In the world that could have been, I could have carried on working happily with the American comics industry.

I know a way that they could have sorted out their continuity. I could have gotten rid of all of their problems for them. It would have been really simple. But, like I say, they unfortunately alienated me. But, they’ve done that everybody who has been a heavy-hitter creatively. Jack Kirby and all the people who genuinely created stuff all got screwed. It was only the company employees who kind of created stuff that wasn’t really that original in the first place that didn’t. It was the Len Weins who kind of did all right out of it because they always did what the company told them.

As the interview says at the end

Thank you for listening to the whole story, not just a sound byte or a sensational headline!
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Post  thecolorsblend Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:03 am

Shit. Shit! That's it for him and Gibbons? He'd hinted as much in the past but, yeah, to see it all laid out there like that... I have to say, it's kind of sad. See, I've got no real sympathies for the Siegel Parasites. Jerry and Joe made a deal. Maybe it was a shit deal but they made it. Nobody twisted their arms. But the Moore/Watchmen thing is different in that he was made promises and given assurances and, yeah, DC has certainly adhered to the letter of the contract but I question if they've done right by the spirit of it.

Anyway. Blah blah blah, you've heard it all from me before. But it's sad to see a writer of Moore's talent turn his back on the industry he arguably did more to save than even Frank Miller because he's tired of getting dicked around.

As to the other thing, I can't immediately recall a time when I've read a creative type put an ultimatum to his audience like that before. If nothing else, that takes a lot of balls.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:21 am

If this is true:

So yeah, I was angry and I said some things which I still stand behind. And, that was the end of it. And, that was the end of my friendship with Dave Gibbons: because he hadn’t phoned up and thanked me and he had done the one thing that I’d asked him not to. When I mentioned this in an interview, he phoned me up again to say, “Oh, thanks for that money, Alan.”

Can you really blame him??

I mean, if there was a heated discussion with someone you consider a friend, and later on you hear him say his side of the story and how it "hurt" that you didn't keep your word, are you going to call that friend up and twist that knife?

How petty can someone be??
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Post  non_amos Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:25 am

Interesting how Moore stated that he could've fixed all of their continuity problems in so many words & that it would've been really simple. I just wonder how he would've done it? I guess we'll never know now unless he just decides to give his opinion on it in more detail.
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Post  thecolorsblend Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:46 am

non_amos wrote:Interesting how Moore stated that he could've fixed all of their continuity problems in so many words & that it would've been really simple. I just wonder how he would've done it? I guess we'll never know now unless he just decides to give his opinion on it in more detail.
I wouldn't count on that ever happening. A lot of comics pros know better than to talk too much about their ideas because they have a funny way of popping up in someone else's story. John Byrne has a well-known prohibition about never sharing aborted/spec story ideas.
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Post  webhead2006 Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:49 am

Would be interesting to see what moore would have done with things.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:25 pm

webhead2006 wrote:Would be interesting to see what moore would have done with things.

Isn't this missing the entire point?
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Post  thecolorsblend Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:32 pm

webhead2006 wrote:Would be interesting to see what moore would have done with things.
Apologist Puncher wrote:Isn't this missing the entire point?
Oh, that explains it. Heard this massive whooshing sound a while ago. It must've been the point going right by webhead.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:41 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:Oh, that explains it. Heard this massive whooshing sound a while ago. It must've been the point going right by webhead.

If it sounded like a supersonic jet being pushed by ANOTHER supersonic jet, then yeah, that was it.
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Post  thecolorsblend Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:13 pm

To bring it all back, Moore threw down an interesting ultimatum in that little interview. Basically, anybody who works on this thing is dead to him, personally and professionally. Think about that for a minute. Here's a guy who, in some interviews, gives the impression he regrets ever doing Watchmen for all the trouble it's caused him... but at the same time, he's CLEARLY still proud of what he achieved there because only pride (the kind you deserve to feel when you do something truly great) would cause him to write off Amanda Connor, Darwyn Cooke and all the rest.

Of course, I think the threats would have more teeth if (A) Moore was more involved in the industry now and (B) he'd made the threat back before so much work had been done in getting these prequels up off the ground. But still, when you've got Alan fucking Moore out there shit-talking you... surely that's head-check time, isn't it?
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Post  Apologist Puncher Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:55 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:To bring it all back, Moore threw down an interesting ultimatum in that little interview. Basically, anybody who works on this thing is dead to him, personally and professionally. Think about that for a minute. Here's a guy who, in some interviews, gives the impression he regrets ever doing Watchmen for all the trouble it's caused him... but at the same time, he's CLEARLY still proud of what he achieved there because only pride (the kind you deserve to feel when you do something truly great) would cause him to write off Amanda Connor, Darwyn Cooke and all the rest.

Honestly, if DC wanted this to come across than MORE than a pathetic cash grab, they wouldn't have done it without both Moore & Gibbons blessing or involvement.

Of course, I think the threats would have more teeth if (A) Moore was more involved in the industry now and (B) he'd made the threat back before so much work had been done in getting these prequels up off the ground. But still, when you've got Alan fucking Moore out there shit-talking you... surely that's head-check time, isn't it?

Alan Moore sure does like Alan Moore, doesn't he?
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Post  thecolorsblend Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:10 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:Of course, I think the threats would have more teeth if (A) Moore was more involved in the industry now and (B) he'd made the threat back before so much work had been done in getting these prequels up off the ground. But still, when you've got Alan fucking Moore out there shit-talking you... surely that's head-check time, isn't it?
Apologist Puncher wrote:Alan Moore sure does like Alan Moore, doesn't he?
True. He's not a very humble person. But he's written some of the most famous comics out there (Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow, For The Man Who Has Everything, Watchmen, all the rest), he knows he's talented and I can't fault him too much for recognizing his success and rep.
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Post  Apologist Puncher Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:49 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:True. He's not a very humble person. But he's written some of the most famous comics out there (Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow, For The Man Who Has Everything, Watchmen, all the rest), he knows he's talented and I can't fault him too much for recognizing his success and rep.

True that. Can't take anything away from the guys accomplishments. But the guy has a very "I'm right, and if you disagree with me, you're an imbecile" vibe every time he speaks.

It's gotten tiresome, and worse, in his old age.
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Post  non_amos Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:54 am

Without doing a search on it, I remember how Alan Moore revitalized the SWAMP THING comic for DC back then. I mean, he didn't start until what, issue#81 or something like that? But that issue went on to become a major collector's item with big-buck value if I'm not mistaken, much more than the actual #1 issue. I actually read some of his run back in the mid-80's but I don't think I have them any longer. Nevertheless I do recall enjoying it. Yeah & I definitely read WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE MAN OF TOMORROW. I wouldn't mind reading that again. If memory serves me correctly, it came out just prior to the Byrne reboot I believe. He didn't also write that Superman Annual did he? You know, the one where Mongul had Superman convinced that he had a normal family life on Krypton? Not sure about that one. Anyway, can someone refresh my memory about the former? Like I said, I did read it but that was way back then.
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Post  thecolorsblend Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:13 am

non_amos wrote:Without doing a search on it, I remember how Alan Moore revitalized the SWAMP THING comic for DC back then. I mean, he didn't start until what, issue#81 or something like that? But that issue went on to become a major collector's item with big-buck value if I'm not mistaken, much more than the actual #1 issue. I actually read some of his run back in the mid-80's but I don't think I have them any longer. Nevertheless I do recall enjoying it.
Never read it. I've got some of the issues but haven't gotten around to checking them out just yet because I keep finding other stuff. Geoff Johns Green Lantern, the Ms. Marvel book from 2006'ish, New Avengers, some 80's Aquaman stuff, etc. Swamp Thing just keeps getting kicked to the back burner unfortunately.

non_amos wrote:Yeah & I definitely read WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE MAN OF TOMORROW. I wouldn't mind reading that again. If memory serves me correctly, it came out just prior to the Byrne reboot I believe. He didn't also write that Superman Annual did he? You know, the one where Mongul had Superman convinced that he had a normal family life on Krypton? Not sure about that one. Anyway, can someone refresh my memory about the former? Like I said, I did read it but that was way back then.
Basically Julius Schwartz had the (in retrospect) brilliant idea of treating the final two issues of the Pre-Crisis Superman era (which were also his own last two issues) as the end of Superman. DC will never permit something like this to ever be done again for reasons I'll go into later if I remember. Anyway. So Alan Moore lobbied for the writing gig (when, to be fair, it probably should've gone to Elliot Maggin, Cary Bates or Marv Wolfman). But Moore got the job because he was big shit even then. The concept was that this would be treated as truly the final Superman story ever so shit you'd normally NEVER get to do in continuity Moore was allowed to do since, hey, it's all getting paved over next month anyway, right?

I like the story. I've got some quibbles though. Superman gives up. No two ways about it. He just gives up. This is one of my problems with Kingdom Come too. To me, Superman and Batman are characters that you can't break. It might be okay for them to be defeated once in a while but either giving up on their missions... no. I mean, I could totally picture Batman coming to a place of acceptance about his parents and realizing that they'd never want him to live his life this way. But that's not giving up, that's him stepping aside. The shit it sounds like we're going to see in TDKRises? THAT is Batman giving up.

And same thing goes for Superman. Motherfucker doesn't give up. Ever. And he especially shouldn't have here. He was faced with an existential threat the likes of which I honestly don't think ever came along before or since (arguably). He acted not only in defense of himself but arguably of the entire GD universe. Reality as we know it. If there was ever a time for Superman to break his vow, this was it. In his shoes, powers or no, I'd have done what he did and slept like a baby that night. There are times when there's a higher moral imperative to serve and this situation epitomized it. Anyway.

But the other thing is that Superman's climactic showdown didn't really involve Lex Luthor. Yeah, Lex was there... but he wasn't really there, you dig? And I'm sorry, Lex is top dog as far as Superman's enemies go. Not only should he have been present, not only should he have been a strong participant but if you ask me he should be leading the charge in Superman's Last Stand. It should've come down between Lex and Superman.

I'm trying to avoid spoilers for people who haven't read the book (which is obviously kind of impossible) but those are my main gripes there. They don't need to minimize the power and impact of the story but they are valid arguments, if you ask me.

As to the other, For The Man Who Has Everything, yeah, that was the Mongul thing. Good little Moore/Gibbons story. It's interesting to compare that to Watchmen. The intercuts, the parallel storylines, the structure. It's not quite apples to apples but it's valuable just for comparison's sake. I think the premise sometimes betrays itself ("your ideal fantasy world... where your father joins the Kryptonian equivalent of the Nazi Party!!" Whaaaa?) and honestly I think the JLU version of the comic is a better version, oddly enough, but this story is great stuff.
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