10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  webhead2006 on Sat May 14, 2011 12:01 pm

Smallville series finale ratings:
www.twitter.com/mattmitovich
CORRECTION! #Smallville finale draws 2.97 million viewers, 1.3 demo rating (across 2 hours).
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RE: 10.21-22, Finale (Spoilers)

Post  non_amos on Sat May 14, 2011 12:09 pm

More crapola from Sabaoth:

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/news.php?readmore=9785&c_start=99

#196 | Sabaoth on May 14, 2011 11:00am EST
Ok.
Some morning comments;

First of all, now we understand why Tom was being so coy with the press during his recent "tour".
The reason he couldn't answer the big question,
"will you wear the suit?" was because he said he received a letter from WB ordering him not to, as apparently WB realized that the truth would destroy the ratings and the buzz surrounding the series finale and preorder sales of the DVD sets.

For those of you stating that "Tom wasn't able to wear the suit because they were not able to do a CGI suit for him because it they didn't have the money".....
Seriously, people?
The suit is made of cotton and durable polyester and not expensive CGI effects.
I would have been completely satisfied if at the very last scene we see Tom in the suit for one second.....
but NO.....not even that!

This was really a slap in the face to the fans.

Regarding the rest of the episode,
the first hour was a complete drag and other than the John Schneider scenes, was a complete waste.

Everything else felt rushed.

They should not have used the John Williams theme at all in the anticlimatic and completely unsatisfying final minutes; the placement of the Williams theme just felt all around wrong and ultimately dated.

I look forward to Zack Snyder and Henry Cavill's upcoming effort to resurrect Superman with great anticipation.

For those of you who are saying (on various message boards) that the Smallville Finale was superior than Superman Returns.....

Ha ha ha! They ripped Superman Returns left and right here, from the plane scene right down to moving a planet...not to mention the unfortunate and sad use of Brandon Routh's CGI likeness.
So the big question,
who screwed the fans?
Did WB prevent Tom from wearing the suit?
or
Did Tom Welling himself choose not to, in order to prevent a picture or footage of him as Superman from ever existing?
I hope this question is officially resolved soon.

And we go round.....and round....and round.....and you get the point. The thread is now on it's 3rd page of comments. Someone shut this guy up already! Twisted Evil
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  webhead2006 on Sat May 14, 2011 12:26 pm

Nice clips from the finale, and I too loved the comic. Would be great if dc released it as a special one time thing or hey with the complete or season ten dvd sets. As for deal with tom not in full on suit, which would have been great. Best bests would be to ask al septin/other producers on twitter or maybe kelly/brian facebook page. They all seem pretty open to answering fans questions. But in the end I was pretty satified with the end of the show. Like others was hoping for a few things we didn't get. But we did get alot more then we probably ever would have. Also I got to say loved they brought back ashmore to be real jimmy, and mckean voice as perry.
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  BHoward on Sat May 14, 2011 1:29 pm

Really liked the finale. I'm satisfied with the way things went, but like a lot of others, I question why the decision was made not to have a full on shot. Was it Welling, was it WB. Questions we'll probably never know the answer to. But ultimately, I'm satisfied.

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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  webhead2006 on Sat May 14, 2011 1:51 pm

Ya hopefully we can get an answer, cause I don't think it was welling in my opinion. He yes wasn't against suits at start of the show. But opened up to it in later yrs. Heck if he didn't why wear ga costume, the black blur, red blur outfits. Maybe it could have been wb. With filming starting up in a few months with the reboot. But I do recall the producers saying they had free reign over superman elements from wb. In the end it would have been nice if they did a full from scratch sv take of the superman suit instead of let's say the red blur outfit. But oh well can't do much about it now. But like you said bhoward would be great to get some answers.
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  Father Finian on Sat May 14, 2011 9:11 pm

I must be an old softie, because I found the finale rather moving actually. Annette O'Toole displayed her real acting chops and the episode really highlighted those "good ol' fashioned values" that makes Superman unique and special.

How could any Superman fan not at least crack a smile when they finally took it to the next level?

Anyone else notice they seemed to "improve" the Singer suit? Not hard, I know, but good on them for doing so. The Singer suit needed improving, it never cut the mustard. At least Smallville made the effort to get the color correct AND reinstated the \S/ on the cape. What does that say about caring about getting the character right?

Snyder was right on the money. Thanks Smallville for keeping Superman's flame alive for the last decade.

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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  Apologist Puncher on Sat May 14, 2011 9:18 pm

thecolorsblend wrote:
Anyone remember how 'Seinfeld' ended??
How could I forget. THAT was a bad finale. Basically it was a clip show. Sure, the SV finale had clips from earlier episodes but those were done to advance the plot, the characters or both. And they were brief anyway.

A clip-show that ended on such a DUMB note, too.

Oh, and something else. Did you notice the American flag on the roof top as Welling finally did a proper shirt rip? It's clearly visible in that second YouTube vid I posted. You KNOW that if Singer had been directing that scene, the flag wouldn't have been there.

Are you referring to "All that stuff"?

Yeah, I caught it.

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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  Apologist Puncher on Sat May 14, 2011 9:21 pm

non_amos wrote:Just curious here. Is it possible that anyone can find out the true facts on why we didn't get a full body shot of Welling in the suit? Was it legal reasons? Was it due to the film reboot? Or was it like duh apologists are whining? They state that 'Welling said he never wanted to wear the suit' & in the end 'he didn't wear the suit' AKA a 'cop-out'. I'm just curious if we can find out in the coming days & weeks if we can get the true story?! Question

No one ever will.

I have a feeling it was the show-runners plan all along.

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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  Father Finian on Sat May 14, 2011 9:36 pm

Apologist Puncher wrote:
Oh, and something else. Did you notice the American flag on the roof top as Welling finally did a proper shirt rip? It's clearly visible in that second YouTube vid I posted. You KNOW that if Singer had been directing that scene, the flag wouldn't have been there.

Are you referring to "All that stuff"?

Yeah, I caught it.

Yeah, and how about Welling's body language as he strides MANFULLY forward as Superman ripping his shirt open to reveal the costume (in it's original colors!)?

It was all a Singer free zone.

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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  Apologist Puncher on Sat May 14, 2011 9:50 pm

Father Finian wrote:Yeah, and how about Welling's body language as he strides MANFULLY forward as Superman ripping his shirt open to reveal the costume (in it's original colors!)?

It was all a Singer free zone.

I have a feeling that if Welling had ripped both wings off of Air Force One, grabbed it by the cone and broke everyone's neck in the plane, then flew outside the ladies room door and listened with super-hearing while Lois was inside, the Apologists would have called it "epick" and that Welling "inbody da charucter" or some shit.

What's funny is, these shitheads actually BELIEVE people care about their opinions.

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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  thecolorsblend on Sun May 15, 2011 3:34 am

thecolorsblend wrote:Something else? I freakin called it. The Apologists, haters and other douchebuckets were all convinced we'd get, at best, a fleeting glimpse of Superman. I said, though, that the resolution to this thing is a job for Superman; not Clark, not Kal-El, not The Blur, not anything else. Superman. Therefore, it stood to reason that we'd get a more prolonged action sequence with Superman where HE saves the day.
Because we're intellectually honest around here, I should mention that although I called the above (although I'm starting to think it was obvious to everyone but the haters and my "prediction" isn't anything special), I was dead wrong about Lex.

I think here on Watchdog I wrote something to the effect that Rosenbaum would be playing the real Lex. I think I even wrote something like "you don't hire Rosenbaum to play a clone". Well. They freaking hired Rosenbaum to play a clone. In their (and my) defense, it was a last minute addition. Who's to say what might've happened if Rosenbaum had committed to doing the finale in advance? Point is though that I was WAY wrong on this one. I'd actually be okay with Lex playing a clone, too, had he retained the original Lex's memories. But no need to go into that again.

Apologist Puncher wrote:Are you referring to "All that stuff"?
Yep. I really dug the flag. It was a nice touch.

Father Finian wrote:Yeah, and how about Welling's body language as he strides MANFULLY forward as Superman ripping his shirt open to reveal the costume (in it's original colors!)?

It was all a Singer free zone.
Somebody needs to buy the crew a beer for that entire sequence.

Apologist Puncher wrote:I have a feeling that if Welling had ripped both wings off of Air Force One, grabbed it by the cone and broke everyone's neck in the plane, then flew outside the ladies room door and listened with super-hearing while Lois was inside, the Apologists would have called it "epick" and that Welling "inbody da charucter" or some shit.

What's funny is, these shitheads actually BELIEVE people care about their opinions.
You forget that they have a mutual admiration society going. Or a circle jerk. Or something. But nobody else gives two fucks what they think, that much is sure.
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  Father Finian on Sun May 15, 2011 9:46 am

thecolorsblend wrote:Somebody needs to buy the crew a beer for that entire sequence.

Yeah. I re-watched the last 10 minutes earlier tonight (over a glass of red). It was telling that the Singer costume stayed "on the rack" in the fortress and Pa Kent actually hands Clark the "real" one. The chest \S/'s, and overall colors are clearly different.

Don't forget that Singer dropped the \S/ on the cape because it was "too difficult to animate". Thanks again Smallville for at least making the f*ckin effort to try and get it right.

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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  Father Finian on Sun May 15, 2011 9:55 am

Apologist Puncher wrote:
Father Finian wrote:Yeah, and how about Welling's body language as he strides MANFULLY forward as Superman ripping his shirt open to reveal the costume (in it's original colors!)?

It was all a Singer free zone.

I have a feeling that if Welling had ripped both wings off of Air Force One, grabbed it by the cone and broke everyone's neck in the plane, then flew outside the ladies room door and listened with super-hearing while Lois was inside, the Apologists would have called it "epick" and that Welling "inbody da charucter" or some shit..

You know, I couldn't help thinking the same thing whilst watching the Air Force 1 sequence. That was a brave move to do the plane rescue thing again...on a TV budget...and good on them. Superman got the job done like you expected him to. It was a struggle, to be sure, but it wasn't the f*ckin shambles like the plane rescue sequence in Singerman where "superman" flails about ripping the plane he's trying save apart in the process, like some kind of superhuman Jerry Lewis.

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RE: 10.21-22, Finale (Spoilers)

Post  non_amos on Sun May 15, 2011 4:50 pm

Never one to disappoint, here are a few more lengthy 'nuggets' from Sabaoth:

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/news.php?readmore=9785#comments

#306 | Sabaoth on May 15, 2011 12:33pm EST
Ok, here are my final thoughts on the Smallville Series finale.

I have the episode recorded on my Direct TV DVR and have seen the complete finale three times.

That being said, let me clarify something for everyone: just because you can find faults in something does not mean that you don't like it or hate it.

Just because The Phantom Menace is my least favorite Star Wars movie and I hate Jar Jar does not mean I will not be first in line to see the 3D version next year as giddy as any fanboy.

Whenever you assume someone is not a fan because they point out the negative in something, you are making a [censored]load of assumptions based on information you do not have. In other words, you are making an uninformed judgment of that fan.

If you like something, you don't have to love everything about it and do not have to defend its defects.

You can critique something and still love it.

Ok....back to the Smallville finale.

What I liked:

The second hour.
The John Schneider and John Glover scenes were spectacular, these gentlemen were just awesome.
And yes, I did love Glover as Darkseid because of the way he carried himself throughout the scene, making it work.
That scene where Clark "floats" in the Barn and finally gains his power of flight was spectacular and one of the highlights of the show for me.
The fortress scene where Jonathan gives Clark the suit and then he flies out as Superman was awesome...had it been up to me, that would have been the final scene.

What I didn't like:

The first hour. OMG. It felt like a bad soap opera. It just bad, the second hour felt like a completely different show.

The way Green Arrow dispatched the Apokaliptian fiends was unconvincing to say the least!

The whole plane scene where Lois gets on board and gets the government officials to listen to her was just unbelievable. I did not like the characterization of Lois throughout season ten and this was the worst example of that.
All the CGI Superman scenes were not convincing..they were lifted out of Superman Returns and seemed poor in quality.

Superman pushing Apokalips planetoid was anticlimatic and just brought back memories of my least favorite scene from Superman Returns.

But the scene that made me angry and still does, is the final scene. The scene begins with a full image of Clark from head to toe, so the viewer feels that he will also see a full image of Superman at the end. That didn't happen. What we got was a short sleeved cheap Superman T-Shirt (go to K-site to see this verified).

What could have made it better.

Just one second of Tom Welling in the suit would have made everything else seem insignificant...but we didn't get that.


Why I believe Tom Welling chose not to wear the costume.


First off, it has been previously established that the WB placed no restrictions on the use of the Superman costume in regards to Smallville.

There was no scene in the finale where we saw Tom wearing the Superman costume.

There was no scene in the finale where we saw Tom Welling's head on CGI Superman's body. (look again at the scene and you will see that Superman's face is always out of focus_)

In the very last scene, Tom wore a Superman short sleeved t-shirt..this has been pointed out and revealed at k-site (on one of their threads.)


Now why isn't there a single frame where you see Tom Welling's head on Superman's body, be it CGI or otherwise?

They could have easily put Tom's head on the CGI Superman for just a second. It's cheap and easy to do.
Here is a fan video were it was accomplished convincingly,

http://youtu.be/2...

At 1:24 - 1:27, you will see two depictions of Tom Welling as Superman (CGI) which were done convincingly and were far better than anything seen in the episode. If these two images had been in the finale, I would have been satisfied.

Look at the video above...

Now...if a fan can do that, why couldn't WB produce at least similar results?

It would have been easy for them to put Wellings head
on a CGI Superman body (as proved without doubt in the fan video above)...so why didn't they?

Why did they only use close ups of Tom's head?

The only logical reason is simple:

Tom Welling prohibited the the directors, producers, and writers of Smallville from creating any image that shows him as Superman, even in CGI form.

It seems that Tom did not want an official image of him as Superman for personal reasons. He always said he did not want to wear the suit.

So not only did Tom not wear the suit, but he also did not let them create a CGI image of him, to create the illusion of him as Superman.


The facts are the facts. If you respond to this, do not call me a hater, etc., because I am pointing out what seems obvious and logical to me, instead, prove my argument wrong with reason and facts instead of relying on emotions.

I hope Brian and Kelly explain this to the fans in the near future. Many of us feel as if we were kicked in the stomach and want to know why.

My overall rating for the finale is a 3/5.

It was a fun ride but there was no gratification at the end.


I guess Sabaoth is like the Energizer Apologist. He takes a licking & keeps on ticking. Or.....in his case, he just 'licks', if ya know what I mean? Wink
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  thecolorsblend on Sun May 15, 2011 5:55 pm

If it was worth my time to register at the Eunuch page again, in reply I'd write "Whenever you assume Welling doesn't want to wear The Suit because of the staging of the Superman scenes, you are making a [censored]load of assumptions based on information you do not have. In other words, you are making an uninformed judgment of that actor."

Of course, methinks he wouldn't catch the irony there. Prick.

But let's be clear on this, he's not a SV fan. In fact, as an Apologist, he's immediately under suspicion for not even being a Superman fan. If you dig on Stalkerman, whatever else you may, you've got a hell of an uphill climb to prove your Superman fan bona fides to ME. Love SV or hate SV, being a fan of Singerman calls every Superman-related thing you say into question.
And since the binary argument lo these many years has been SV vs. Singerman (ie, most fans love one and hate the other), my argument is that hating SV is for most folks outting oneself as a Singerman lover (hence the Realist vs. Apologist thing).

They can all fuck off for all I care. SV fans have got ten seasons worth of a great Superman story and nothing will ever change that. Meanwhile, the Apologist douchenuts have a one-and-done, pleather-covered turd burger that won't EVER get a sequel. Plus, there was more interest in the SV finale than there was in the Singerman premiere. The public has truly spoken on this one. SV is a hit while Singerman has been weighed in the balance and found wanting and completely forgotten when POTC2 came along.

I'd much rather be on the SV side of this equation.
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  Father Finian on Sun May 15, 2011 10:02 pm

non_amos wrote:Never one to disappoint, here are a few more lengthy 'nuggets' from Sabaoth:...............I guess Sabaoth is like the Energizer Apologist. He takes a licking & keeps on ticking. Or.....in his case, he just 'licks', if ya know what I mean? Wink

Oh, boo hoo. Welling didn't wear the rubber fetish costume left over from Singerman. Who can blame Welling for not wanting to wear the Singer suit? The Singer suit turned out to be nothing more than a prop. Again, Welling wouldn't have fitted into it even if he wanted to. Plus, and let's be honest here....nobody could argue that rubber suit did Ruth any favours. OK, as it transpired it was just a prop, but personally I wouldn't have even resurrected it for that. It is best forgotten.

More importantly, and obviously more likely to go over the heads of idiots like this guy.......

Did we see Superman? Yes, and tellingly he looked and behaved a lot more like the real Superman that was missing from the recent big screen adaption.

Did even casual viewers get reminded of the old fashioned values that make Superman an icon? Yes.

Was Superman portrayed as the saviour of the world and inspiration to all? Yes.

Did Welling portray the confidence, stature and body language required to play Superman? Yes. Check out the shirt rip ending again. Ruth never came close.

Did the ending make you feel like more Superman? Yes...and yes from me.

I'd be happy with that.



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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  Apologist Puncher on Sun May 15, 2011 10:14 pm

non_amos wrote:Never one to disappoint, here are a few more lengthy 'nuggets' from Sabaoth:

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/news.php?readmore=9785#comments

#306 | Sabaoth on May 15, 2011 12:33pm EST
Ok, here are my final thoughts on the Smallville Series finale.

I have the episode recorded on my Direct TV DVR and have seen the complete finale three times.

That being said, let me clarify something for everyone: just because you can find faults in something does not mean that you don't like it or hate it.

Just because The Phantom Menace is my least favorite Star Wars movie and I hate Jar Jar does not mean I will not be first in line to see the 3D version next year as giddy as any fanboy.

Whenever you assume someone is not a fan because they point out the negative in something, you are making a [censored]load of assumptions based on information you do not have. In other words, you are making an uninformed judgment of that fan.

If you like something, you don't have to love everything about it and do not have to defend its defects.

You can critique something and still love it.

Ok....back to the Smallville finale.

What I liked:

The second hour.
The John Schneider and John Glover scenes were spectacular, these gentlemen were just awesome.
And yes, I did love Glover as Darkseid because of the way he carried himself throughout the scene, making it work.
That scene where Clark "floats" in the Barn and finally gains his power of flight was spectacular and one of the highlights of the show for me.
The fortress scene where Jonathan gives Clark the suit and then he flies out as Superman was awesome...had it been up to me, that would have been the final scene.

What I didn't like:

The first hour. OMG. It felt like a bad soap opera. It just bad, the second hour felt like a completely different show.

The way Green Arrow dispatched the Apokaliptian fiends was unconvincing to say the least!

The whole plane scene where Lois gets on board and gets the government officials to listen to her was just unbelievable. I did not like the characterization of Lois throughout season ten and this was the worst example of that.
All the CGI Superman scenes were not convincing..they were lifted out of Superman Returns and seemed poor in quality.

Superman pushing Apokalips planetoid was anticlimatic and just brought back memories of my least favorite scene from Superman Returns.

But the scene that made me angry and still does, is the final scene. The scene begins with a full image of Clark from head to toe, so the viewer feels that he will also see a full image of Superman at the end. That didn't happen. What we got was a short sleeved cheap Superman T-Shirt (go to K-site to see this verified).

What could have made it better.

Just one second of Tom Welling in the suit would have made everything else seem insignificant...but we didn't get that.


Why I believe Tom Welling chose not to wear the costume.


First off, it has been previously established that the WB placed no restrictions on the use of the Superman costume in regards to Smallville.

There was no scene in the finale where we saw Tom wearing the Superman costume.

There was no scene in the finale where we saw Tom Welling's head on CGI Superman's body. (look again at the scene and you will see that Superman's face is always out of focus_)

In the very last scene, Tom wore a Superman short sleeved t-shirt..this has been pointed out and revealed at k-site (on one of their threads.)


Now why isn't there a single frame where you see Tom Welling's head on Superman's body, be it CGI or otherwise?

They could have easily put Tom's head on the CGI Superman for just a second. It's cheap and easy to do.
Here is a fan video were it was accomplished convincingly,

http://youtu.be/2...

At 1:24 - 1:27, you will see two depictions of Tom Welling as Superman (CGI) which were done convincingly and were far better than anything seen in the episode. If these two images had been in the finale, I would have been satisfied.

Look at the video above...

Now...if a fan can do that, why couldn't WB produce at least similar results?

It would have been easy for them to put Wellings head
on a CGI Superman body (as proved without doubt in the fan video above)...so why didn't they?

Why did they only use close ups of Tom's head?

The only logical reason is simple:

Tom Welling prohibited the the directors, producers, and writers of Smallville from creating any image that shows him as Superman, even in CGI form.

It seems that Tom did not want an official image of him as Superman for personal reasons. He always said he did not want to wear the suit.

So not only did Tom not wear the suit, but he also did not let them create a CGI image of him, to create the illusion of him as Superman.


The facts are the facts. If you respond to this, do not call me a hater, etc., because I am pointing out what seems obvious and logical to me, instead, prove my argument wrong with reason and facts instead of relying on emotions.

I hope Brian and Kelly explain this to the fans in the near future. Many of us feel as if we were kicked in the stomach and want to know why.

My overall rating for the finale is a 3/5.

It was a fun ride but there was no gratification at the end.


I guess Sabaoth is like the Energizer Apologist. He takes a licking & keeps on ticking. Or.....in his case, he just 'licks', if ya know what I mean? Wink

The bold and enlarged part is all you need to know about this fucking asshair. OPINIONS and CONJECTURE are "facts" in his warped little noggin.

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RE: 10.21-22, Finale (Spoilers)

Post  non_amos on Mon May 16, 2011 12:50 am

OK. Sabaoth has given us the opinion of an apologist ad nauseum. How about the feelings of a realist? OK. Was I myself wanting to see a full-body shot of Welling in the suit for at least a few seconds? Sure I did. Was I disappointed that I didn't get that? Definitely! However, in spite of that, I still found myself getting 'choked up' in those final moments! What with the Williams theme playing & it all representing Superman saving the day & all of that 'stuff', including the AMERICAN FLAG, yeah, I got kinda emotional! It was definitely a fulfilling feeling compared to the entirety of Singerman, which left me with more questions than answers. In that sense, Smallville didn't disappoint! Sure, this, that, & the other could've been better, like Darkseid for example, but I still feel like they gave this a decent ending.

I'm gonna tell you the truth though. Michael Rosenbaum's return as 'pseudo-Lex' left me a little flat! I understand that for the longest time the SV team didn't know if MR would really come back or not. Maybe if they'd have had more notice, then maybe they could've done his return more justice? Maybe. But to tell you the truth, FRANKEN-LEX I like, not! I know I said this at some point on another thread but I think it still could've rang true. My theory was that Oliver didn't kill Lex. He just thought he did. Since Luthor is supposed to be a genius, he could've anticipated Oliver's move & had one of his 'clones' on that truck, i.e., Lex would've 'out-smarted' everyone, thus faking his on death! In the meantime, the real Lex would've been 'in the shadows', behind the scenes pulling strings, until the day that he would finally reveal himself to both Clark and the world! And besides, even though I knew Rosenbaum was leaving the show, I got pissed off that they would just 'kill off' Luthor! What kinda dufus thinking was that?! Never liked that. Period!

Also, if you think about it, my theory would've made more sense from a reality perspective. Lex would've pulled one of the biggest CONS of all time! And then the real Luthor would've come back to have done battle with Clark/Superman!

What did we get? Alt-Lionel trying to be Dr. Frankenstein & put 'Humpty Dumpty' back together again, complete with 'sewn-together' parts like the Frankenstein monster! And get this! When 'pseudo-Lex' finally confronts Clark, we get 'words'. And then they don't see each other again. To add insult to injury, then false-Lex goes on to murder Tess in cold blood, who in turn gives him a MIND-WIPE so he doesn't remember ANYTHING about Clark! But he does apparently get away with murder & goes on to be elected President in the 'non-election year' of 2018, which the apologists are fond of pointing out that "Hey! This proves it's an ELSEWORLDS story!"

I'll tell you the truth, I think the way LUTHOR was presented in this episode was really the disappointing part. It could've (& should've) been so much more than it actually was! No
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  thecolorsblend on Mon May 16, 2011 12:59 am

I agree with all of the above. Rosenbaum was one of the things I was looking forward to the most but it ended up being the most disappointing. We got a LOT more Superman than I was expecting so I was never going to complain there. But all of that fuss, all of that hype, everything that ensued... and all we got was basically a rebooted Lex???

I love the finale, don't get me wrong, but I'm not blind to the flaws, and this was a big one, esp since it essentially eradicated Lex's entire series arc. It isn't small potatoes.

I still don't get wtf the comic thing was supposed to be about.

As for SV being an Elseworlds story, I'd consider that if (A) SV in any way fit the definition of an Elseworlds story and (B) the person making the accusation had ever read a fucking Elseworlds story... but I assure you none of 'em have (except maybe Kingdom Come).
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RE: 10.21-22, Finale (Spoilers)

Post  non_amos on Mon May 16, 2011 1:12 am

As for SV being an Elseworlds story, I'd consider that if (A) SV in any way fit the definition of an Elseworlds story and (B) the person making the accusation had ever read a fucking Elseworlds story... but I assure you none of 'em have (except maybe Kingdom Come).

Interesting thing about KINGDOM COME. It was originally presented something like an 'alternate' story. However, 'post-INFINITE CRISIS' (I think) they actually incorporated it into regular DC canon! I believe it was before they had their '52 Weeks' or whatever where Superman was powerless? Anyway, I stopped buying those comics somewhere along that time. Just couldn't afford them anymore. Anyway, I know I've got the issue somewhere in which "KC SUPERMAN' shows up to the heroes in the regular DC universe, including Superman, & he himself is also confirmed to be Superman! I believe he also reminded the heroes of 'Earth-2 Superman' who had just recently died at that time. I really don't know what ever happened with that storyline because I quit buying the comics.
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  thecolorsblend on Mon May 16, 2011 1:16 am

non_amos wrote:Interesting thing about KINGDOM COME. It was originally presented something like an 'alternate' story. However, 'post-INFINITE CRISIS' (I think) they actually incorporated it into regular DC canon! I believe it was before they had their '52 Weeks' or whatever where Superman was powerless? Anyway, I stopped buying those comics somewhere along that time. Just couldn't afford them anymore. Anyway, I know I've got the issue somewhere in which "KC SUPERMAN' shows up to the heroes in the regular DC universe, including Superman, & he himself is also confirmed to be Superman! I believe he also reminded the heroes of 'Earth-2 Superman' who had just recently died at that time. I really don't know what ever happened with that storyline because I quit buying the comics.
I think I know what you're talking about. If I'm thinking of the right thing, it was in a JSA book that eventually brought back the original Legion of Super-Heroes.

Ah, Alex Ross, walking proof that familiarity breeds contempt...
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  Father Finian on Mon May 16, 2011 5:10 am

thecolorsblend wrote:I agree with all of the above. Rosenbaum was one of the things I was looking forward to the most but it ended up being the most disappointing.

Yeah. I felt that Rosenbaum phoned that performance in. Money for jam. He was outshone by just about everyone else's performances, and by his own seamless bald cap. Nice subtle use of CGI to smooth that out though.

The finale got so much right, on a TV budget, that it feels almost churlish to nit pick, but yep Lex's much hyped return wasn't the highlight of the finale for me either, as it turned out.

On another positive though, I can't think of when Erica Durance ever looked better. No CGI needed there

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RE: 10.21-22, Finale (Spoilers)

Post  non_amos on Mon May 16, 2011 11:43 am

Father Finian wrote:
thecolorsblend wrote:I agree with all of the above. Rosenbaum was one of the things I was looking forward to the most but it ended up being the most disappointing.

Yeah. I felt that Rosenbaum phoned that performance in. Money for jam. He was outshone by just about everyone else's performances, and by his own seamless bald cap. Nice subtle use of CGI to smooth that out though.

The finale got so much right, on a TV budget, that it feels almost churlish to nit pick, but yep Lex's much hyped return wasn't the highlight of the finale for me either, as it turned out.

On another positive though, I can't think of when Erica Durance ever looked better. No CGI needed there

Yeah, it's like, all this time, Rosenbaum was not gonna do it, not even for the fans. Then he finally relented in the ''11th hour' so to speak, even acknowledging the "threats, HA! HA!" as he put it.

Obviously if he hadn't been so stubborn all of this time, it would've given the writers & all more time to have developed his return & not to 'toot my own horn' but I feel like the explanation I gave would've been far more credible & would also have given us the real Lex. Personally I think Rosenbaum should've relented soon enough so that they could've worked him in, say, with at least FIVE episodes to go in the series, then build towards his meeting with Clark. Who knows, maybe even that could've been the note that the show ended on instead of Darkseid? And since SV is so fond of 'Easter eggs' & nods to the mythos, imagine this. We could've realistically had Rosenbaum in the BATTLESUIT! We may or may not ever see that in a film but believe me, SV sure would've attempted it!

Instead, due to Rosenbaum's reluctance, we get a few measly lines of dialogue & Father's right, he 'phoned' it in. Even the meeting with Clark left much to be desired! And I know Colors brought up this point but I saw the same thought mirrored over on duh Homopage in their 'heated' debate about this, the point being that with the MIND-WIPE, they basically destroyed Luthor's ENTIRE SERIES ARC! As one guy put it, Toyman knows that Clark is Superman, every 'freak-of-the-week' knows that Clark is Superman, but LEX doesn't know that Clark is Superman? So why would he have a rivalry with him then? If you ask me, both Rosenbaum and the writers dropped the ball on this one!

But as for John Schneider for example? I don't believe I've read too much negative at all about his performance, even from duh apologists, except for the occasional 'Ghost Dad' remark. He did a great job! And so did Annette O'Toole! But what gripes me is that MICHAEL ROSENBAUM is considered like, the 'bestest' version of Lex Luthor e-vah, but he 'phones in' his final performance?!

That's my biggest concern on the Finale! Mad
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  webhead2006 on Mon May 16, 2011 2:40 pm

I did really enjoy michael back at lex. Though i agree with you guys it was a bit silly to go an mind wipe him in the end. With how lex and clark's scene went. IT would have just been fine if lex remembered all. Though i did think it was great in the end tess did end being a good guy and helped clark the the league out.

As for the whole suit debate. I too would have liked one full money shot of welling in the complete suit. Would have been great. Yes we got alot more superman then we expected to see. But it too was one thing i wanted to see. But even though i was disapointed there. I too was fairly happy with the end of the show. It was a great run, 218 episodes. Alot of great superman characters, villains, and stories we got to see. We also got to see the show evovle into a live action DCU series. Something we are likely not to see again for many many yrs. So for all its ups and downs it had in its 10 yr run. I enjoyed it alot.
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Re: 10.21-22, Finale (spoilers)

Post  thecolorsblend on Mon May 16, 2011 3:04 pm

Conspiracy theories are going as to why we never really saw The Suit. Some blame Tom but others say that the movie division pulled rank and ordered the SV folks to only tease The Suit. Some other people are saying it's a legal issue (which makes no sense to me... but then things like that are matters of law, not logic; the two rarely overlap).
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